MSB's new Sentinel DAC

[Lee]

Singer Vehicle Design makes increasingly expensive Porsches (they have released four new ones in the past year or so) and most are over $1 million when all is said and done.

The Porsche community looks at that pricing and thinks "wow, that's a lot but they are selling everyone they make and they are really amazing build quality."

Why can't the audiophile community be like that? Especially when it almost always trickles down into more affordable products.

We live in a free markets society with lots of centi-millionaires and billionaires so there will be luxury priced gear.

It's a small industry with largely tiny manufacturers. They likely need these big ticket sales.

 

[battles]

I agree and respect everyone’s POV on this thread. But my biggest misgiving about “investing” in this hobby, especially at flagship price points, is the steep depreciation curve equipment suffers at the moment it is acquired (unlike a Singer collectible Porsche that will likely appreciate in value). And I believe this driven by the differential in MSRP vs street pricing, which is further exacerbated by certain enthusiasts who receive substantial pricing accommodations who then are willing to move their equipment at prices well below retail in the secondary market. If there were more price integrity in the industry (perhaps enforced by manufacturers?), I suspect MSRP would be lower and we wouldn’t see current vintage gear hitting the used market at 50% of MSRP.

 

[Al M.]

I agree and respect everyone’s POV on this thread. But my biggest misgiving about “investing” in this hobby, especially at flagship price points, is the steep depreciation curve equipment suffers at the moment it is acquired (unlike a Singer collectible Porsche that will likely appreciate in value). And I believe this driven by the differential in MSRP vs street pricing, which is further exacerbated by certain enthusiasts who receive substantial pricing accommodations who then are willing to move their equipment at prices well below retail in the secondary market. If there were more price integrity in the industry (perhaps enforced by manufacturers?), I suspect MSRP would be lower and we wouldn’t see current vintage gear hitting the used market at 50% of MSRP.

It's not just the differential in MSRP and street pricing, and pricing integrity in general.

SOTA digital from 10 years ago is probably equalled or eclipsed by today's digital of one fifth the price (or less), and the same will happen to today's digital in 10 years. If you buy SOTA digital today you buy it for the joy of the moment. But don't think of it as a wise "investment", it isn't.

 

[Elliot G.]

I think the debate on price is somewhat arbitrary. On another popular audio forum you could copy and paste the posts from this thread and change the price under discussion to $10,000. But, here on WBF, members have generally accepted $10,000 to be a reasonable price. With that in mind, who are you (or we) to declare and mock $375,000 as ridiculous. To be clear, I find all the high-end audio gear to be ridiculously priced and a product of the one of the world's most inefficient industries/markets. Yet, I am a consumer of it. I am willing to pay a premium in the pursuit of, "what's best."

there is always mocking and jealousy and some of it is very deserved however not all for sure. I respect dCS and MSB for there work and efforts to make something better however there seems to be something underlying this that is not all about that. It is certainly there in the speaker business and 100 percent there in the cable business.
Great companies don't have to change there stuff every year to compete for the attaboys of the reviewers. This is a reality and no-one wants to talk about it. When the only marketing that most companies have is the review process and getting the cover of a magazine or getting product of the week, month, year or best in show this is what we end up with.
If the old theories about building flagship and then the tech works its way down that I praise and understand but that is not what we are witnessing from many companies. I believe there is a large ego driven portion of this and the proliferation of such UBER priced gear is IMO proof.
Yes I know I sell high end stuff and who am I to say this? Well I am the perfect person to say since I live it everyday.
Not all companies have the pedigree to make these type of products and this arms race hurts all of us by raising all the prices to cover it.
For all the Wadax hate here they built a new reference level product 4 years ago and it still the one everyone is shooting at. Its not discontinued, its still modular, updateable and bad ass. They took their tech and it did trickle down, down into a killer piece. They seem to be doing exactly opposite of their competition. as they used to say on Laugh IN ......very interesting

 

[Mike Lavigne]

reality is that seeking broad acceptance for super spendy digital is a losing proposition. it's like sticking your chin out. for some reason super spendy analog mostly gets a pass since many don't think they know that much to criticize. or simply don't relate or care.

but EVERYONE is an expert on digital and the value proposition of digital hardware. just ask them.

 

[Lee]

For all the Wadax hate here they built a new reference level product 4 years ago and it still the one everyone is shooting at. Its not discontinued, its still modular, updateable and bad ass. They took their tech and it did trickle down, down into a killer piece. They seem to be doing exactly opposite of their competition. as they used to say on Laugh IN ......very interesting

But how is Wadax any different from MSB inventing the Director and people using that on their Reference DAC?

How is that any different from dCS creating APEX technology for the Varese and then creating new APEX boards for the Vivaldi and Rossini?

It seems to me that Wadax, MSB, and dCS are all pursuing similar paths.

 

[pk_LA]

But how is Wadax any different from MSB inventing the Director and people using that on their Reference DAC?

How is that any different from dCS creating APEX technology for the Varese and then creating new APEX boards for the Vivaldi and Rossini?

It seems to me that Wadax, MSB, and dCS are all pursuing similar paths.

I don't think that is quite the case although I think I get the point you are making.

 

[Lee]

I don't think that is quite the case although I think I get the point you are making.

Similar path is a. building a flagship that is cost no object, b. take learnings and create new version of more affordable products.

Different paths are the technical approach to getting better digital sound. We can debate on which is most successful sonically.

 

[Elliot G.]

Similar path is a. building a flagship that is cost no object, b. take learnings and create new version of more affordable products.

Different paths are the technical approach to getting better digital sound. We can debate on which is most successful sonically.

No it is not the same particularly financially for anyone involved.

 

[pk_LA]

The only care I have for the 'financials' part of this equation is a company's solvency. Basically, I just want to know they aren't about to go belly up like we recently saw with one company.

As for 'future proofing', I find that statement naive and offensive. To effectively 'future proof' a device one needs to understand the landscape of upcoming CPUs and GPUs, interfaces (like USB and optical variants), electronics cooling, power delivery, etc etc. I do not believe that anyone in the high end audio space has these insights beyond what is simply and publicly available.

So, for me, I look at three things.
1) Where is the unit relative to the market? In other words, how much better is it than it's competitive set normalized by cost.
2) What is the relative timeline for advancement in the category? The Vivaldi was arguably a top-dog (or at least in the ring) for over 6 years. The Wadax has been so for over 4 years now. This gives me a sense of time and depreciation.
3) How much does the unit speak to me sonically vs. my desires? When I reviewed the Vivaldi Apex vs. other dacs, the Vivaldi resolution was among the very best but I wasn't really wanting for the extra it provided.

 

[Ian B]

I expect the Sentinel and what system accompanies it, to be a timeless monolith with museum or temple built around for people to congregate and listen for a hundreds years.

 

[pk_LA]

Sigh. I feel that we have exceeded the amount of discussion that is healthy with respect to price. I feel that audiophilescientistscabal.com (or whatever it's called) beckons!

But, for me, I remain curious about the Sentinel.

...I will confess that when I did the in-home auditions of pretty much every high end DAC a couple years back that the Wadax continues to haunt me. It was the only dac that combined ultra high resolution with speed with a transitory smoothness. And, yes, I realize this might sound somewhat contradictory! Ultimately I bought an MSB Select and a Horizon 360. Neither are perfect.

 

[Al M.]

Sigh. I feel that we have exceeded the amount of discussion that is healthy with respect to price. I feel that audiophilescientistscabal.com (or whatever it's called) beckons!

But, for me, I remain curious about the Sentinel.

...I will confess that when I did the in-home auditions of pretty much every high end DAC a couple years back that the Wadax continues to haunt me. It was the only dac that combined ultra high resolution with speed with a transitory smoothness. And, yes, I realize this might sound somewhat contradictory! Ultimately I bought an MSB Select and a Horizon 360. Neither are perfect.

But didn't you also say that you found the sound of the Wadax slightly artificial?

 

[pk_LA]

But didn't you also say that you found the sound of the Wadax slightly artificial?

I did. The Wadax has a few controls that enable amazing adjustment. One of effectively dialing the feedback and the other seems to be a continuously variable smoothing adjustment on the response curve (seemed to be a knob version of the distinct filters dCS offers). When I got the smoothing to where I liked it, the music did feel somewhat artificial. But! And I emphasize the but. I spent a couple hours with the machine in the system. When my time was done I was actually inclined to buy it. I ultimately passed for 3 reasons. 1) space - I wanted all the gear to fit in the cabinets and out of sight completely. 2) Price vs. the artificial sound feeling. 3) Price vs others that were close-ish. The Horizon sounds awesome. And when you factor in price, it is amazing. I have done a lot of A|Bs between my Horizon and my Select/Director. With the exception of electronic music I end up choosing the Horizon every time.

Also by way of follow-up, I recently heard a Wadax with CH 10-Series and Rockport Lyras. I loved it! Had I not found myself endlessly adjusting the feedback on the CH stuff per genre of music I would have bought the lot of it.

 

[gds7368]

What is the Sentinel form factor? Does it have power bases etc like the Cascade, or is it one box?

 

[Dustin Symanski]

Three boxes, much like a larger Cascade DAC system. One Digital Director approximately 4” tall, one Analog Converter approximately 10” tall and one Power Supply approximately 10” tall. The final external casework has yet to be finalized. The analog converter and power supply caseworks are very intricate, 3d designs with tight margins for electrical, mechanical, shielding, thermal, serviceability and aesthetic performance requirements. Daniel has been hard at work refining them for quite a while now. Many mockups have been printed and prototypes machined so far to help us get the design as perfect as possible.