Multi-bit DSD versus PCM

[Bruce B]

Bruce needs to offer this service. I was thinking about it but it would be a huge initial investment to obtain a rig worthy enough that people would pay for the service. Bruce has the gear though

Send in your collection and have it archived to quad DSD with the best gear, and the best skill

What do you say Bruce? Or would you rather roll around in the new SL?

I already do. Been doing it for a few years now. Folks have sent me their LP's by the crate and I put the Quad DSD files on an external HD for them.

Though.... rolling in the SL does put a grin on my face as well!

 

[PeterA]

So to reframe in my system context.

Turntable is Kuzma Ref with Triplanar VII and Lyra Kleos through BMC MCCI.

Option 1. Buy a Merging Horus and associated software for not sure price but let's just say $7k

Or

Optio. 2. Buy an Air Tight PC1 or Lyra Etna or whatever very high end cartridge. Use existing Tascam.

What recording sounds better? I reckon option 2.

Bill, this is an interesting question. I have owned the PC1 and it was quite an improvement over my last cartridge. But, I would suggest you start with two other analog accessories. First, a MINT LP Protractor to align the cartridge as best you can. Cost, about $110. Second, a great record cleaning process. I use a Loricraft plus 4 step solution, but a KLAUDIO Ultrasonic cleaner for about $3,500 would also be good.

In addition to that, I would consider isolating the turntable on something like a Vibraplane for $3,000 including compressor. That gets you far for under $7,000 total and would improve your rips, I would think.

Of course, a new cartridge can also be a good option. I have bought two lightly used AirTight PC-1 Supremes for less than $7,000. Properly set up, that can be quite an improvement too.

 

[Blizzard]

I already do. Been doing it for a few years now. Folks have sent me their LP's by the crate and I put the Quad DSD files on an external HD for them.

Though.... rolling in the SL does put a grin on my face as well!

No way. Well that's the way to go. Let me see, spend 100K plus to do all the work yourself, or simply send the LP's to Bruce. Hmmmm that's a very hard decision......

Thanks for letting me know. I have an option for all the guys asking me to put a phono stage on my system now

With great idea's like this, no wonder you're rolling in an SL

 

[Blizzard]

I already do. Been doing it for a few years now. Folks have sent me their LP's by the crate and I put the Quad DSD files on an external HD for them.

Though.... rolling in the SL does put a grin on my face as well!

I'm almost thinking of starting a vinyl collection now, just so I can send it to you to archive to quad DSD. Beats waiting for quad DSD versions from master tape of my favourite classic rock that was great on vinyl, but poor on digital. When friends come over to listen, I can put a curtain in front of the system and tell them I have a $100K+ vinyl setup behind it I can go behind the curtain with the album and pretend to put it on. Nobody would know the difference.

Then I can describe to them all of the vinyl gear you have (turn table, tonearm, cartridge, isolation platform, phono stage) it was sourced from, and tell them that's what we are listening to. And I wouldn't even be lying to them

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Your view is a little bit extreme. Digital has to be done right as well to get the best out of it. The cost of doing it well is getting lower as technology advances, but it still isn't cheap to build a no-comprimise digital playback system. However much much less than a turntable that's for sure.

Perhaps. But I've yet to see most of the "improvements" quantified. And if "no compromise" exists only at inaudible levels, I can't imagine why I'd care. Maybe you can point me toward some solid data?

Tim

 

[Blizzard]

Perhaps. But I've yet to see most of the "improvements" quantified. And if "no compromise" exists only at inaudible levels, I can't imagine why I'd care. Maybe you can point me toward some solid data?

Tim

If it was inaudible, what would the point of any of this discussion be in this thread? Most people judge audio gear by listening to it. This is the bottom line. You rarely see consumers who are looking for a system show up at the dealer with an audio precision measurement setup to do their auditions. The measurement end of things, is for the manufacturers to use while developing the equipment. It's a very handy tool to have when designing gear. It's a bonus to be able to publish beautiful specs as well, but as you should know by now, the stuff people spend the most on, is the stuff that looks the worst on paper.

So a realistic view should be taken of this. Audio is a subjective thing. These filter/modulators make a subjective difference. But in order to understand exactly what they do to make the difference, you must be very knowledgeable in this area. The other option is to just listen to it and hear for yourself. If it makes no difference to you, then perfect, just keep doing things they way your used to and be happy about it.

Sometimes having a simplistic view on things is the best way to do it. I wish I was capable of this.

This book was a real eye opener on the subject. I don't agree with him 100%, as we need people to do things the hard way. But sure would be stress free to think the way some do. I would fit into the "maximizer" category in his paradigm. My life would be much easier if I was a "satisfier".

 

[lateboomer]

I already do. Been doing it for a few years now. Folks have sent me their LP's by the crate and I put the Quad DSD files on an external HD for them.

Though.... rolling in the SL does put a grin on my face as well!

This is what I am talking about. After scrolling, skipping and reading through so many pages, we come to the crux of matter that helps further advance the digital music little bit. Like a mosquito urging a dinosaur to move forward a little bit, as a great man once said. Blizzard, this is master stroke. Thank you and also Bruce B.

 

[Blizzard]

This is what I am talking about. After scrolling, skipping and reading through so many pages, we come to the crux of matter that helps further advance the digital music little bit. Like a mosquito urging a dinosaur to move forward a little bit, as a great man once said. Blizzard, this is master stroke. Thank you and also Bruce B.

Yes this is the solution to the real problem with digital today. Knowing this option is available, now nobody can come up with excuses for why vinyl is better than digital in the sound department. The real problem is the source, because we can now buy DAC's for less than $10000 that can perfectly replicate the sound of the source. What this proves is, we need to be focusing on where our digital sources are coming from, rather than blaming digital playback gear because of the poor job some studio's have done in the past with their digital transfers.

The complete audio chain to obtain the best digital today via Bruce B:

Source material (Vinyl,R2R master/DSD direct)-Pyramix/Horus (finest SDM/SRC algorithms ADC)-quad DSD-Roon/HQplayer SDMdirect/DSD DAC with SRC/SDM bypass (via SDM chip or chipless)= Holy grail of digital circa 2016

 

[lateboomer]

Though.... rolling in the SL does put a grin on my face as well!

By the way, what is SL? I can't find from Google.

 

[Blizzard]

By the way, what is SL? I can't find from Google.

It's the kind of car people drive who have great idea's

 

[Bruce B]

It's the kind of car people drive who have great idea's

View attachment 25582

The exact color too! Diamond White pearl.

Mercedes SL63 AMG

 

[RayDunzl]

Lousy photoshop picture, though.

 

[Blizzard]

The exact color too! Diamond White pearl.

Mercedes SL63 AMG

I knew you had good taste

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Bill, this is an interesting question. I have owned the PC1 and it was quite an improvement over my last cartridge. But, I would suggest you start with two other analog accessories. First, a MINT LP Protractor to align the cartridge as best you can. Cost, about $110. Second, a great record cleaning process. I use a Loricraft plus 4 step solution, but a KLAUDIO Ultrasonic cleaner for about $3,500 would also be good.

In addition to that, I would consider isolating the turntable on something like a Vibraplane for $3,000 including compressor. That gets you far for under $7,000 total and would improve your rips, I would think.

Of course, a new cartridge can also be a good option. I have bought two lightly used AirTight PC-1 Supremes for less than $7,000. Properly set up, that can be quite an improvement too.

Hi Peter,

I have the Feickert protractor for setup. On the cleaning front a VPI 16.5 and Audio Desk ultrasonic - the cleaners are so important I agree. On the isolation front, I only have my turntable sat on 3 stillpoints ultra 5s - that said my turntable has suspension tuned to 2.2hz. I always wondered how much more I would gain by putting it on an active platform.

Funnily enough I like both your cartridges - the ultra low impedance designs seems to sound so vibrant, dynamic and unrestricted. What do you prefer out of the Air Tight and My Sonic Labs? Both those work exceptionally with my phono stage.

 

[PeterA]

What do you prefer out of the Air Tight and My Sonic Labs? Both those work exceptionally with my phono stage.

Bill, I'll PM you with a link to my direct comparison between these two cartridges so as not to take this thread too far off topic and into the analog realm.

 

[Blizzard]

I just discovered a software on Bruce's sub-forum that appears to do multibit DSD (DSD wide, PCM narrow) editing to DSD. It even supports up to quad DSD. It's also free! Hopefully Bruce can chime in on his experiences with it.

Here's what they say on the website:

"Native editing of DSD files is supported without conversion to PCM (although conversion is also available.)"

http://tascam.com/product/hi-res_editor/

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18413-DSD-Editing-software

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I just discovered a software on Bruce's sub-forum that appears to do multibit DSD (DSD wide, PCM narrow) editing to DSD. It even supports up to quad DSD. It's also free! Hopefully Bruce can chime in on his experiences with it.

Here's what they say on the website:

"Native editing of DSD files is supported without conversion to PCM (although conversion is also available.)"

http://tascam.com/product/hi-res_editor/

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18413-DSD-Editing-software

I have used this briefly as it is recommended with the Tascam da3000. I have only used it to chop tracks up. Not a lot of functionality - what would you use it for, Blizz?

 

[Blizzard]

I have used this briefly as it is recommended with the Tascam da3000. I have only used it to chop tracks up. Not a lot of functionality - what would you use it for, Blizz?

I was under the impression there was more functionality with it. I just downloaded it and it seems that all it's really good for is offline format conversion, unless I'm missing something? But I would like to offline convert some PCM with it to quad DSD and see how it sounds vs online with HQplayer. However there's no option to choose filters and modulators, so you are stuck with whatever they decided to go with for algorithms. Unfortunately my system is in pieces today, so I'll have to do it once back together.

 

[Priaptor]

Yes this is the solution to the real problem with digital today. Knowing this option is available, now nobody can come up with excuses for why vinyl is better than digital in the sound department. The real problem is the source, because we can now buy DAC's for less than $10000 that can perfectly replicate the sound of the source. What this proves is, we need to be focusing on where our digital sources are coming from, rather than blaming digital playback gear because of the poor job some studio's have done in the past with their digital transfers.

The complete audio chain to obtain the best digital today via Bruce B:

Source material (Vinyl,R2R master/DSD direct)-Pyramix/Horus (finest SDM/SRC algorithms ADC)-quad DSD-Roon/HQplayer SDMdirect/DSD DAC with SRC/SDM bypass (via SDM chip or chipless)= Holy grail of digital circa 2016

Blizzard,

Thanks for the overview. I have recently started playing around with HQPlayer now that it is interfacing with Roon. I am currently using an MSB Diamond IV Plus. Unless I am mistaking, MSB technology is based on the R2R "outdated" technology you are referring to, at least in reference to converting to DSD via HQPlayer; just curious if I have that correct.

Furthermore, you claim that if one checks the box in HQPlayer, then the DSD stream will bypass the HQPlayer algorithms and that will be the purist stream (not necessarily the "best").

If I am correct Merging Technologies NADAC (I am just interested in 2 channel) uses multiple SABRE chips in both their 2 and 8 channel NADACs?? Just curious, IF, I chose to go the DSD ONLY route, in reference to your comments that some chips can be bypassed, etc, do you recommend any particular chip or DAC that works best with HQPlayer? I was particularly interested in your comments that some chips allow bypassing it's processing, which sounds like all the processing could be done by HQPlayer (unchecked SDM) without being further modified by the chip itself. If I am reading your comments correctly in light of the latter statements is there a DAC using such chips that you would recommend?

Thanks
Howie

 

[Blizzard]

Blizzard,

Thanks for the overview. I have recently started playing around with HQPlayer now that it is interfacing with Roon. I am currently using an MSB Diamond IV Plus. Unless I am mistaking, MSB technology is based on the R2R "outdated" technology you are referring to, at least in reference to converting to DSD via HQPlayer; just curious if I have that correct.

Furthermore, you claim that if one checks the box in HQPlayer, then the DSD stream will bypass the HQPlayer algorithms and that will be the purist stream (not necessarily the "best").

If I am correct Merging Technologies NADAC (I am just interested in 2 channel) uses multiple SABRE chips in both their 2 and 8 channel NADACs?? Just curious, IF, I chose to go the DSD ONLY route, in reference to your comments that some chips can be bypassed, etc, do you recommend any particular chip or DAC that works best with HQPlayer? I was particularly interested in your comments that some chips allow bypassing it's processing, which sounds like all the processing could be done by HQPlayer (unchecked SDM) without being further modified by the chip itself. If I am reading your comments correctly in light of the latter statements is there a DAC using such chips that you would recommend?

Thanks
Howie

Hi Howie,

The MSB DAC is an amazing DAC no doubt, but you must understand that the R2R section on the MSB DAC, like all R2R DAC's is for PCM only. When you send DSD to the DAC, it's using the DSD section of the DAC. The R2R section isn't being utilized at all. So if you are using the MSB DAC with HQplayer to resample PCM to DSD, that DAC is definitely overkill for the application. You aren't using their R2R section or even the filters in their Sharc DSP chip anymore when using HQplayer. However they do use excellent clocks and have an excellent DSD section, along with well implemented USB interface.

The Merging DAC's use a single Sabre 9008 chip. This chip is an 8 channel chip. In the Hapi/Horus, it's only possible to use each channel separately. There's no internal summing of the channels to improve dynamic range. On the NADAC, the 2 channel version sums all 8 channels to 2 channels internally to improve dynamic range. So this does offer some level of improvement over the 8 channel versions of the the Hapi/Horus and NADAC. However, some folks have built an external summing device to sum all 8 channels to 2 with the Horus/Hapi to achieve the same thing as the 2 channel NADAC does internally.

With any DAC that uses the Sabre chip, it's impossible to completely bypass the multibit SDM section of this chip. HQplayer can allow bypassing of the oversampling filter section, and the modulation, but not the multibit conversion. In my practice, I've found that DAC chips that have the DSDbypass mode sound better with HQplayer using this mode, vs using the mode that passes through the internal SDM/SRC section like the Sabre forces you to only pass through. But this is not saying that a DAC that allows this bypass is going to automatically be the superior DAC. There's much more to the total package than how things are handled in the chip. However if your DAC does have this feature, using it in combination with HQplayer will offer the best performance.

As far as recommending a good DAC. I think you already have a great DAC for the task. It may be overkill for DSD only purposes, but likely handles DSD very well.