Multi-bit DSD versus PCM

[Blizzard]

Of coarse they are not equal, why would they be?

Bliz, you're knowledge of both ripping and vinyl are, IN FACT, largely imagined, AT ANY COST ... you have no actual experience, you can pretend otherwise, but despite a few rips sent your way providing license to quote uber $$$ as the main indicator of comparative quality vs "mediocre" rips ... it's truly meaningless.

The one thing about ripping, they're easily shared. The proof is in the pudding so to speak, if these rips are really as good as advertised ...

Well if you can make better rips with worse gear then good for you. All of my best rips are the ones that were made on the best gear. That's all I know. Same goes with master tape rips. Seems like the better sounding ones were made at the studios that have the better equipment. Very strange coincidence I know.

 

[Rodney Gold]

Im not sure why Vinyl is even being discussed here... it does not in any way sound the same as digital...
Comparing is useless...
Unless you comparing the sound of the TT/vinyl "au natural" vs a digitised rip of that "au natural" sound.. they *should* sound the same.. but why you would want to do that is beyond me..all you get with that rip is a snapshot of the rig , and a small change on the rig makes that moot
note the word SOUND .. forget the paint by numbers reasoning

 

[Blizzard]

Im not sure why Vinyl is even being discussed here... it does not in any way sound the same as digital...
Comparing is useless...
Unless you comparing the sound of the TT/vinyl "au natural" vs a digitised rip of that "au natural" sound.. they *should* sound the same.. but why you would want to do that is beyond me..all you get with that rip is a snapshot of the rig , and a small change on the rig makes that moot
note the word SOUND .. forget the paint by numbers reasoning

It came up because there's been an ongoing discussion here on several threads about where the shortcomings are with digital. Are they in the DAC, or are they in the source material. The only true way to determine this is to compare an analog original source on the analog original equipment, and the finest digital copy of it possible made from the analog outs of the source. Ripping vinyl from the analog outs of a phono stage is the perfect way. If they are identical, and can't be told apart, it proves that any shortcomings from digital, are due to shortcomings in the source material, and not the ADC/DAC's or digital format.

If you don't have all the gear to make this happen, you are in no position to make the claim that vinyl is superior to digital as a medium in today's audio landscape. This is the bottom line.


Anyways this has gone way off topic. Interesting topic, but not directly related to multibit DSD vs PCM.

 

[TBone]

Well if you can make better rips with worse gear then good for you. All of my best rips are the ones that were made on the best gear. That's all I know. Same goes with master tape rips. Seems like the better sounding ones were made at the studios that have the better equipment. Very strange coincidence I know.

Worse gear, arghhh, really???

Wow, no vinyl or ripping experience, still doesn't stop you from magically comprehending quality w/cost of my vinyl gear/recording techniques/methods.

Bliz, I've thousands of track/song rips, different and rare pressings, rigs from $200K to $5K, rec.formats 16/44, 24/96,192, DSD ... no imagination required on my part.

 

[Blizzard]

Worse gear, arghhh, really???

Wow, no vinyl or ripping experience, still doesn't stop you from magically comprehending quality w/cost of my vinyl gear/recording techniques/methods.

Bliz, I've thousands of track/song rips, different and rare pressings, rigs from $200K to $5K, rec.formats 16/44, 24/96,192, DSD ... no imagination required on my part.

So is there a distinct pattern that when the ripper upgrades his system to better gear, that there's noticeable degradation to the sound quality of the rip in your experience?

I have some ripper friends who have sent me revised versions of their rips after upgrading their gear. I can notice that they sound better after the upgrade. So can they. Likely the reason for the upgrade in the first place I'd say. But unfortunately they usually had to spend more money when they made the upgrades to acquire the upgraded superior gear. Not always the case, but usually the case in the monetary based world we live in.

 

[TBone]

So is there a distinct pattern that when the ripper upgrades his system to better gear, that there's noticeable degradation to the sound quality of the rip in your experience?

No, why would upgrading necessarily represent a degradation?

I have some ripper friends who have sent me revised versions of their rips after upgrading their gear. I can notice that they sound better after the upgrade. So can they. Likely the reason for the upgrade in the first place I'd say. But unfortunately they usually had to spend more money when they made the upgrades to acquire the upgraded superior gear. Not always the case, but usually the case in the monetary based world we live in.

My early rips are inferior to what I can accomplish now, but that should be a given ... and it's better rips from others that made me realize my systems warts, and pushed me to improve ... same front end, different recorders, different cleaning and prepping, much much more precise setup; the entire chain, from stylus to digital copy, that methodology dictates overall performance, not necessarily any added cost.

With certainty, the digital format of choice/used will have far less - degradation - when compared to nearly anything within the analog chain.

 

[Blizzard]

No, why would upgrading necessarily represent a degradation?



My early rips are inferior to what I can accomplish now, but that should be a given ... and it's better rips from others that made me realize my systems warts, and pushed me to improve ... same front end, different recorders, different cleaning and prepping, much much more precise setup; the entire chain, from stylus to digital copy, that methodology dictates overall performance, not necessarily any added cost.

With certainty, the digital format of choice/used will have far less - degradation - when compared to nearly anything within the analog chain.

So basically what you're saying is you need to know what your doing to make a good vinyl rip. And yes I agree. But I also think if the same guy who knew what he was doing had better gear, he would be able to obtain better end results. If Madfloyd decided to say "Happy bday Tbone!" And gave you his vinyl rig. And Bruce B said "Happy bday Tbone!" And gave you his Merging Horus ADC, I can imagine that the quality of your rips would go up a few notches.

 

[anders]

It was brought up in an earlier page how Berkeley recommends converting DSD to PCM 176 KHz in JRiver.

That is precisely what I do, and using Foobar's ABX tool I have never been able to pass a statistically significant blind test between native DSD and one converted to 24/176, the results are more or less in line with guessing. I consider my hearing/listening ability good; age 24 and classically trained musician from early on.

Just my personal observation/opinion.

 

[Blizzard]

It was brought up in an earlier page how Berkeley recommends converting DSD to PCM 176 KHz in JRiver.

That is precisely what I do, and using Foobar's ABX tool I have never been able to pass a statistically significant blind test between native DSD and one converted to 24/176, the results are more or less in line with guessing. I consider my hearing/listening ability good; age 24 and classically trained musician from early on.

Just my personal observation/opinion.

Which DAC are you using?

 

[anders]

Which DAC are you using?

Lampi Big7 (with nos Arcturus output tubes/EML rectifier) for that comparison, which I conducted a few times with different recordings from various genres. All discs were magnetic tape to DSD.

Now I expect the attack on the DAC and maybe it is justified since the B7 does smooth over some of grit of live music. My favorite DAC I own is a maxed out AN4, but of course it doesn't do DSD. I am interested in the Mola Mola DAC when that comes out.

 

[Blizzard]

Lampi Big7 (with nos Arcturus output tubes/EML rectifier) for that comparison, which I conducted a few times with different recordings from various genres. All discs were magnetic tape to DSD.

Now I expect the attack on the DAC and maybe it is justified since the B7 does smooth over some of grit of live music. My favorite DAC I own is a maxed out AN4, but of course it doesn't do DSD. I am interested in the Mola Mola DAC when that comes out.

Yes it makes sense that DSD converted to PCM would sound better on a PCM only DAC. If it has the DSD board in it, it's a completely different DAC altogether when you feed it DSD and PCM. They just share the same tubed output stage. So if they both sound the same, that's a pretty odd evaluation. It's not what most Lampi guys are saying.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I think you guys might be surprised how competent the Tascam da-3000 is for ripping vinyl into double dsd - it is very cheap to buy one.

Blizz - I am surprised that you haven't started a mod thread for the Tascam since it is real world money and surely capable of being improved with some basic changes.

 

[Blizzard]

I think you guys might be surprised how competent the Tascam da-3000 is for ripping vinyl into double dsd - it is very cheap to buy one.

Blizz - I am surprised that you haven't started a mod thread for the Tascam since it is real world money and surely capable of being improved with some basic changes.

I don't have any ADC's, but if I had a vinyl rig I would get one for sure. But hard to justify when you have friends with over 100K of gear and vinyl collection beyond imagination I can get rips from.

Anyways SOTA ADC's with quad DSD capability will be available very cheap soon. The new AKM ADC's are supposed to be killer. Better than the ADRA AT1201 that's used in the Merging HAPI/Horus and Ayre QA9. There's also some other game changers about to be unveiled as well.


http://www.akm.com/akm/en/product/datasheet1/?partno=AK5572EN

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I don't have any ADC's, but if I had a vinyl rig I would get one for sure. But hard to justify when you have friends with over 100K of gear and vinyl collection beyond imagination I can get rips from.

Anyways SOTA ADC's with quad DSD capability will be available very cheap soon. The new AKM ADC's are supposed to be killer. Better than the ADRA AT1201 that's used in the Merging HAPI/Horus and Ayre QA9. There's also some other game changers about to be unveiled as well.

I have set my Tascam up between phono stage and preamp so whenever I decide to listen to an LP, I merely drop the needle and click record. I have a massive 128GB compact flash card on the Tascam so it is really painless. No pissing about with computers etc. Well at least until it is full and I need to add cover art etc. These rips are really great to listen to.

 

[Blizzard]

I have set my Tascam up between phono stage and preamp so whenever I decide to listen to an LP, I merely drop the needle and click record. I have a massive 128GB compact flash card on the Tascam so it is really painless. No pissing about with computers etc. Well at least until it is full and I need to add cover art etc. These rips are really great to listen to.

Can you tell the rips apart from the vinyl? Can you also use software with it so different SDM algorithms can be used rather than what's preset into the hardware?

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Can you tell the rips apart from the vinyl? Can you also use software with it so different SDM algorithms can be used rather than what's preset into the hardware?

I honestly don't think there is a lot in it at all. I have never done a formal blind AB but I think they are darn close. The vinyl direct perhaps has just a fraction more life and sparkle. You can use it just as an AD or DA but it does not have USB input so not really any good to use software off board for unless you have a USB to sdif3 interface - if you know of one, please let me know!

 

[Blizzard]

I honestly don't think there is a lot in it at all. I have never done a formal blind AB but I think they are darn close. The vinyl direct perhaps has just a fraction more life and sparkle. You can use it just as an AD or DA but it does not have USB input so not really any good to use software off board for unless you have a USB to sdif3 interface - if you know of one, please let me know!

Looks like it's mainly made to be used as a simple standalone device. It's not like the Merging HAPI/HORUS where everything is done inside software based DAW.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Looks like it's mainly made to be used as a simple standalone device. It's not like the Merging HAPI/HORUS where everything is done inside software based DAW.

Yes indeed. It is much simpler solution (and cheaper). When I emailed Bruce, he advised me to get Tascam for my purposes and also because he felt it was ~90% of the Merging Horus / Pyramix.

 

[Blizzard]

Yes indeed. It is much simpler solution (and cheaper). When I emailed Bruce, he advised me to get Tascam for my purposes and also because he felt it was ~90% of the Merging Horus / Pyramix.

Yes great simple solution. Pyramix also has a steep learning curve from what Bruce says as well. So this type of system is definitely more practical for the average home audio enthusiast.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Yes great simple solution. Pyramix also has a steep learning curve from what Bruce says as well. So this type of system is definitely more practical for the average home audio enthusiast.

At the end of the day, one can also upsample these to quad dsd in software and add filters as you see fit using hqplayer or other software to further "improve" the sound quality.