"Natural" Sound

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Amir, I don't see how any of this negates a "Natural" sound. Of course there are compromises and flaws in the recordings and you lose things in the production process, no ones disputing that ....
Actually I am :). The moment we look at a recording as a step down version of the live presentation, we are back to thinking creating recorded music is about replicating a live experience. That simply is not so. The person creating a recording is creating new art. He and the talent sit together in a room with stereo speakers and see how they can create an enjoyable version of that music. At no time are they trying to mimic the live sound with minor exception of binaural recordings and such. Again, please allow me to quote Dr. Toole:

"In a recording studio, the recording engineer becomes a major contributor
to the art
by adjusting the contribution of each musician to the overall
production, adjusting the tonal balance and timbre of each of the contributors,
and adding reflected and reverberated sounds or other processed versions of
captured sounds to the mix.
This too is judged subjectively, on the basis of
whether it reflects the artists’ intent and, of course, how it might appeal to
consumers."


"Natural" doesn't mean 100% reproduction of the original event with multiple perspectives that only portions exist, but a true connection or window to the original event based on the recording.
Why the original event? You are not given the original event. Per above, you are given a new manifestation of art, to be appreciate as that. Not to be second guessed to be something else as that being the sign of greatness. We seem so determined to explain terms like this which at the end of the day, are just compliments. They are not to be taken as specific terms that have useful meaning. Here again is Dr. Toole:

"The evaluation of reproduced sound should be a matter of judging the
extent to which any and all of these elements are accurately replicated or
attractively reproduced. It is a matter of trying to describe the respects in
which audio devices add to or subtract from the desired objective.
A different
vocabulary is needed. However, most music lovers and audiophiles lack this
special capability in critical listening, and as a consequence, art is routinely
mingled with technology. In subjective equipment reviews, technical audio
devices are often imbued with musical capabilities. Some are described as being
able to euphonically enhance recordings, and others to do the reverse. It is
true that characteristics of technical performance must be reflected in the
musical performance, but it happens in a highly unpredictable manner, and
such a commentary is of no direct assistance in our efforts to improve sound
reproduction."


When we are trying to convey what we hear for the others to appreciate, we need to have the terms have real meanings. Such meanings need to translate in specific ways to equipment's ability to reproduce sound in a high fidelity manner. We need precise terms just like the Legal profession does in its use of English language. Generic feel good terms do not fill this purpose.

Using your own example here; let's take the photo shoot of the model in the studio as the original event, the digital image as the high quality recoding of that event and the painting for the in home reproduction. Different as the painting is from even the photo its still a "Natural" representation of that young woman at the moment of capture. The slightly rotund face and the difference in the clothing, artistic liberty in this case don't change the essence of who she is or the actual event. While not "Real" what you see in the painting is a "Realistic" reproduction of that young lady, that's what we mean by "Natural" and not an exact copy that you're thinking of and arguing about, which can actually can be quite unnatural!
What you just did David was strip all the art from the painting and represented it as whether it accurately reflected real life or not. This is at the core of our disagreement. The painting stands alone. It need not have any connection to a reality to be fantastic in its regard.

FYI, the painting that I showed was the work of Dutch painter, Johannes Vermeer. The name of the painting is "Girl With a Pearl Earing." The type of painting is called a "tronie" meaning that it is not a literal painting of anyone specific. It is art in itself and no attempt should be made to think backward as to who that person is.

800px-Meisje_met_de_parel.jpg


The studio shot was an attempt to replicate that painting in real-life. As a photographer, I find the studio picture boring and other than attractiveness of the model, of little value emotionally. The painting on the other hand, grabs me as great work of art. I can study it for a long time and continue to enjoy it. Yet what is there is not natural as in what happened in real life. As I explained there was no such person.

The bottom line is that the art is what is handed to us as recorded music. That is the start of it. Any terms we use to imply what came before it in any manner, is not helpful to assess the fidelity of a system whose input is only that recorded art and no more.
 
Look, I've spent more hours listening to music with Steve over the last 15 or so years than perhaps any other WBF member, save Marty. I've got a pretty good handle on what kind of sound Steve enjoys, be it gear, genres, favorite artists, or storage formats. I know to a reasonable degree of audiophile certainty what is (are) his favorite flavor(s).

So now, guess what? I have a different favorite flavor. So now I guess I post on WBF that my favorite flavor (which is, of course, based on the sum total of all of my experiences which I described hereinabove) is, to be (to use ddk's terminology), more natural.

As I stated at the beginning of this thread, and as have others as well, and as you know well too, the sound of unamplified live music has a rather wide range of timbres, depending on acoustics, distance from instruments, the way they are played etc..In a similar manner, different flavors of presentation through a system can sound equally natural, or unnatural.
 
I didn't read it that way. Ron was just expressing his preferences, even though I may not agree with him. The sound of unamplified live music, on which 'natural' is modeled, mostly is very detailed. It's just not the etched hi-fiyish detail that you hear from some systems. And it is often also not smooth at all, as I pointed out in my posts on the first page of the thread. And what is fatiguing to one person is exciting to another.

Hi Al.

The OPer went beyond expressing his preference. As I quoted, he framed his question in such a way as to unneccessarily antagonize those who do not subscribe to his list of 2 purportedly exhaustive and mutually exclusive definitions of *natural*. He did not need to include the questions containing such caricatures. As such, as I stated, I reject it.

As a trial attorney -- where's Greg to confirm -- I evaluate and object to questions for a living. Of course, we're not in a courtroom, but I can assure you my objection to his question would be readily sustained.
 
But the recording is all we have.
Keith.

For what? This is about pleasure remember - would you rather sit there listening to a crap recording of great music but scarcely listenable or would you rather enjoy it more with a coloured facsimile that proxies for what you guess how it would have sounded.
 
As a trial attorney -- where's Greg to confirm -- I evaluate and object to questions for a living. Of course, we're not in a courtroom, but I can assure you my objection to his question would be readily sustained.

We're not in a courtroom indeed, and that is precisely the point, Ron. You simply read too much into this issue. Others have supported my more benign reading of the OP as well -- you stand alone on this one.
 
So if one is a member of an extraordinarily small club, if one speaks Audiophilese, one understands it. If one is not a member of the club, if one does not speak Audiophilese, one does not get it. Um, OK.

Sadly, I guess, I'm not a club member. Steve did not limit his post to state merely that he enjoyed ddk's system more than any other he has experienced in a few decade's worth of being an audiophile. Again, why isn't that good enough? The fact of the matter is, he went further. He stated, in no uncertain terms, that ddk's system not only is the most *natural* he's experienced, but that anyone who would take the time to visit ddk would come away with the same feeling.

Well, I'm happy that Steve enjoyed his time with ddk. Sharing time with fellow music lovers is great. And I'm happy that ddk is kind enough that he would open his doors and share his labor of love with Steve.

But what am I supposed to do with Steve's contention? Take it on faith? Is that what being an Audiophile is... faith? Or, heaven forbid, is it a sin to ask, as Amir has done, is there something more? Will Amir (and I) be admitted into the Audiophile heaven in the sky, not by insisting one rejects his/her faith, but instead by asking one to acknowledge it as such, to acknowledge one's own boundary, by asking one to know where the tip of one's nose is?

Look, I've spent more hours listening to music with Steve over the last 15 or so years than perhaps any other WBF member, save Marty. I've got a pretty good handle on what kind of sound Steve enjoys, be it gear, genres, favorite artists, or storage formats. I know to a reasonable degree of audiophile certainty what is (are) his favorite flavor(s).

So now, guess what? I have a different favorite flavor. So now I guess I post on WBF that my favorite flavor (which is, of course, based on the sum total of all of my experiences which I described hereinabove) is, to be (to use ddk's terminology), more natural.

If I'm going to state it as a fact, which at least some members here have done, then I'm going beyond the tip of my nose. Facts are pesky little things.

And, ddk, please, spare me. I do have contempt, contempt of arrogance, lack of humility and intellectual dishonesty. If you don't care for my observations, don't read them. Indeed, blocking members (me) will set you free. Please do so forthwith.

Hi Ron

I haven't asked anyone to believe me about David's system but rather I was so gobsmacked by his system that in my 50 plus years of audiophilia was IMO the best system I have ever heard. Not sure why that sits badly with you. I was giving my opinion. I asked and recommended that others take the pilgrimage. Many have including ALF recently and my buddy Marty is going there in 2 weeks. I am asking no one to believe me and frankly this has nothing about being admitted into audiophile heaven. Of course you cannot comment about his system nor any one else's until you hear it. This thread has become nothing more than a few people on different sides probably talking about the same thing but honestly Ron I feel your comment to David became hostile at the end and unnecessary but you've made your point. Now perhaps we can all be admitted to audiophile heaven
 
Don't understand why you're on the attack Ron and are purposely demeaning folks here? Why bother replying when you have this much contempt? Maybe you should take some of your own advice on humility instead of preaching it to others!

What is Amir's position on what is "Natural" and what isn't? All I read from him is that things can transform in the recording process and end result will be different from the original event. No one has disputed this fact, but that doesn't mean that the reproduction can't be "Realistic" and "Natural".

For me, both these portraits, different, are "Natural" and "Realistic" representations of a young lady sitting in for a session, take your poll if there's any doubt.

View attachment 22987

This portrait is also a representation of young woman sitting for a session, would you call this "Natural" or "Realistic?

View attachment 22988

david

Thank you David for putting a big smile on my face on a lovely Friday afternoon. Too hilarious.
 
Thank you David for putting a big smile on my face on a lovely Friday afternoon. Too hilarious.

what one needs to remember is that the picture on the right is Scarlett Johanssen taken from her starring in the movie about the artist and picture so most of us will take Scarlett any day
 
The 'colour' you add may 'improve' a poor recording, but you are adding the same colour to every recording.
Personally I just want to hear what the artist intended.
Keith.

Not if you have EQ, then you can adjust color from recording to recording. That's what I do with bass by changing the subwoofer volume between recordings. Sometimes it's even necessary to do that, when the bass on the recording is either anemic or overblown. In those cases, should my system reproduce what the recording engineer intended? Of course not, either his intentions suck or his studio monitors do.

I wouldn't mind having a Cello Palette in my system for the other frequencies too. I know, it's audiophile heresy, but I don't care about audiophile dogmas.
 
what one needs to remember is that the picture on the right is Scarlett Johanssen taken from her starring in the movie about the artist and picture so most of us will take Scarlett any day

Indeed, and the same painting was the subject of an art heist in the hilarious modern movie about the English girl's school, St. Trinian's.
 
what one needs to remember is that the picture on the right is Scarlett Johanssen taken from her starring in the movie about the artist and picture so most of us will take Scarlett any day

Oh, that's why I was fascinated by the photograph, unlike Amir who was bored ;)
 
As I stated at the beginning of this thread, and as have others as well, and as you know well too, the sound of unamplified live music has a rather wide range of timbres, depending on acoustics, distance from instruments, the way they are played etc..In a similar manner, different flavors of presentation through a system can sound equally natural, or unnatural.

I'm reminded of the well known idea that when one reads the message in a fortune cooking, one always adds the words "in bed" to the end of the message. It makes virtually all of the fortunes funny, at least for us deviant types.

So when I read your statement and that of many others, I think, why can't people just add the words "to me" to the end of their statements? That *to me* represents the tip of one's nose.

What one may find natural, another not so much or at all. As such, what Amir just posted is dead on.

It is no answer to state the words *to me* are implied or should be inferred. There are some who contend natural or more natural as a fact.
 
I'm reminded of the well known idea that when one reads the message in a fortune cooking, one always adds the words "in bed" to the end of the message. It makes virtually all of the fortunes funny, at least for us deviant types.

So when I read your statement and that of many others, I think, why can't people just add the words "to me" to the end of their statements? That *to me* represents the tip of one's nose.

What one may find natural, another not so much or at all. As such, what Amir just posted is dead on.

It is no answer to state the words *to me* are implied or should be inferred. There are some who contend natural or more natural as a fact.

Thanks Ron!

And that is all there is to it ...

At one point I was frankly about to just not post at all in this thread so surprised I was by the anti-subjectivist tone of many replies. To call these condescending would give them too much value; they however highlight a striking lack of respect for other's positions and leanings. Let's be generous and call these attacks unnecessary.
I sincerely think that we have to stop seeing our viewpoints or opinions as facts because we strongly believe in them or .. "we have experienced it"... Such attitudes lead to worse than just disagreeing on things Audio. Our opinions are just that "opinions" they can't be proven .. They are NOT facts however strongly we believe or how sincere we are. The performance or creed of our audio systems however elevated they are both objectively and subjectively doesn't make us infallible or become superhuman with superior hearing abilities.
 
I sincerely think that we have to stop seeing our viewpoints or opinions as facts because we strongly believe in them or .. "we have experienced it"... Such attitudes lead to worse than just disagreeing on things Audio. Our opinions are just that "opinions" they can't be proven .. They are NOT facts however strongly we believe or how sincere we are. The performance or creed of our audio systems however elevated they are both objectively and subjectively doesn't make us infallible or become superhuman with superior hearing abilities.

Sure, opinions are subjective. That also holds for the term 'natural'. As I wrote at the beginning of the thread:

Given what I outlined above, I would say [natural] does mean something clear and knowable, but 'ubiquitous understanding' is debatable, if that means just one particular thing. As I said, live sound of unamplified music, the reference for 'natural', comes in a rather wide range of timbres, and where your perception is along that range will also depend on your personal experiences, your preferred seat in the concert hall, the acoustics of your favorite concert venue etc. So there is an element of subjectivity in it, but not in the sense of 'anything goes'.
 
The 'colour' you add may 'improve' a poor recording, but you are adding the same colour to every recording.
Personally I just want to hear what the artist intended.
Keith.

But that is the point - you often are not due to crap recording.
 
The 'colour' you add may 'improve' a poor recording, but you are adding the same colour to every recording.
Personally I just want to hear what the artist intended.
Keith.

Should we carry a poll in the members of a symphonic orchestra to know what was the "artist" intention in a Mahler Symphony? Or just ask the conductor?
 
But that is the point - you often are not due to crap recording.

Also Keith I think if you want to genuinely hear what the artist intended, then you are better off going to regular live music events. Surely the object of listening to our systems if pleasure?
 
No point. The Symphony isn't the art, the recording is the art. The engineer is the artist.

:p

Lol. Exactly - I actually think some people think this here!
 
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