Natural Sound
- Thread starter PeterA
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Bonzo, thank you for that history. I have read the same plus the reviews. And I have read Mike's reports of his history with Colibri. I am not claiming old is better than new, I simply wrote this where the words "not always" should be noted:
"The newest or latest and greatest is not always the preferred option."
My two Master Signatures started out with 1.1 mV outputs. They were each then reduced to 0.75 and upgraded to Grand Cru when I had my old system and this was in improvement. I compared them to the AirTight Opus 1 and Supreme, and to the MSL Signature Gold and Atlas SL. I preferred them to all previous cartridges I had heard in my system, primarily for the resolution. I then had their outputs reduced further for my new much more efficient system because the 0.75 was way too much in comparison to the Technics MM. That cartridge exhibited a nuance that the vdH did not have. The lower outputs of 0.25 and 0.35 are better with increased nuance and more resolution than the Technics and also the Ortofon SPU I had borrowed, though those two are also wonderful sounding.
I only decided to try the XPP because I briefly mounted it in my old DD Denon DP45 as a test. That 40 year old inexpensive table sounded great in my new system, so I put the XPP on the back arm on the Micro Seiki in place of the 5R Grand Cru.
I think Mr. AJ vd Hull is an artist with strong technical knowledge of audio. And he loves music. He always listens and he experiments, searching for ways to improve. The XPP was a gift from him to the head archivist of the Vienna Opera and Symphony. Mr. vd Hull described it at the time as the most neutral and resolving cartridge he knew how to build. That gentleman in Vienna sent that cartridge to me. I have had many exchanges with Mr. vd Hul. He says his current cartridges are the best he has ever made, and he is still experimenting and changing them. There is certainly sample to sample variation, and many varieties of each model depending on the customer's specific requests and requirements. I have looked for some used vdH cartridges and not found ones that match the specifications I need for output and arm matching.
I have tried to explain why I and some other listeners who have heard both in my system seem to prefer this particular XPP to the Master Signature. Some prefer it by a lot. I prefer it only slightly. DDK set up the Master Signature and I have no doubt it is optimized in my system. David has heard many of the new cartridges as he tests them for his clients before sending them along. He is candid with his impressions. He heard no obvious sonic issues with my sample of the Master Signature.
I am thrilled with both my Grand Cru and my Master Signature. I recently wrote that I wanted a third vdH Colibri. I feel lucky to have found that third cartridge in this XPP. The three vdH Colibris and SME 3012Rs are a wonderful combination in my new system. They sound slightly different. That's all I can tell you.
I don't think output alone has to do with efficient system, given that western electric and living voice both used high output ones, and tang had a 0.5 that I heard. Audioquattr also used a 0.7 GC
His impedance varies a lot from 0.13 on GC to 0.39 for the higher output MS.
His impedance varies a lot from 0.13 on GC to 0.39 for the higher output MS.
That is fine. I don't know the reasons nor exactly what was done to the cartridges when Mr. van den Hul lowered the outputs, twice. The magnets look smaller, but there were other changes too, including perhaps number of windings. Fewer windings means less moving mass. The dampers were also changed to a different type. It is also not clear if he did the same modification to each of the cartridges. As I wrote, he is an artist.
What I got back with lower output tended to sound less forced and punchy and more nuanced in my system. The old system needed the high output of at least 0.75. Perhaps that is why I did not like the XPP more in the Magico/Pass system. The other very important change was being able to use more than just three clicks on the volume control. Now, the MS is between 9-11 O'clock on the dial and I can better fine tune the volume depending on the recording. Apparently the Lamm volume has a more optimal range above 9:00.
I can not comment about other combinations in systems I have not heard. And without comparing the same cartridge with different outputs in the same system, personally, I would not know enough to comment.
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sorry,
interesting statement, can you please explain, why a different impedance match will not change the sound ?
(by the way, XPP has 500!ohm coil resistance. I used up to 1kohm, sometimes even 5kohm loading)
Yes. The industry standard for phono inputs is 47KOhms. That is thousands of times higher than the actual impedance of most cartridges. So the phono section insofar as its input impedance is concerned will have no effect.
Now loading is a different matter! Sometimes you notice differences if the phono section has problems with RFI being injected at its input (all LOMC cartridges generate RFI). 'Loading' reduces the 'Q' of the electrical resonance caused by the LOMC cartridge and the tonearm cable (IOW, inductance in parallel with capacitance). When the Q is low, the peak can't go into 'excitation' (can't generate RFI; 'excitation' is a radio term) and so that takes out some brightness (some phono sections really don't like RFI at their input and can sound bright as a result). This is a topic that has been covered elsewhere on this site- search on 'cartridge loading'. 'Loading' of the cartridge isn't the same as the input impedance of the phono section.
Well, there may be a few reasons. One needs to first be invited and asked to do such a thing. Second, Ian has only one tonearm, and such comparisons are much easier on two identical arms and cables. Third, such a comparison takes time and effort.
Perhaps the main reason is that I know my preference in my own system. These are my cartridges and not Ian's. Ian has expressed no interest in doing such a comparison. He can't get the XPP and he prefers Lyras anyway. What would be the point? If you are suggesting he bring his phono to my house, there would be all sorts of complications with that, and I still don't know what the purpose would be. My phono is just right for my system.
You recently wrote that the hobby is about questions not answers. This is fine for a guy who travels to hear live music and other people's systems but does not have his own. For me, the hobby in not so much about questions anymore. It is more about enjoying what I have and learning more about music. I can do cartridge comparisons in my own system.
Sorry that my English seems to be not precise enough for my message, in many documents I found the term "load impedance" :
"MC cartridge load impedance is usually 5-10xthe output impedance of the cartridge as specified by the manufacturer, 1x-5x for cartridges used with transformers. For MM cartridges load impedance is usually a standard 47k ohms"
So I will use this term.
(But I assume, the most readers will understand, that I meant with "impedance" or "load" the value, which is shown / set up on the individual phono stage to connect the cartridge.)
vdh recommends for XPP 1kohm and higher "load impedance" , he liked, that my Phonostage that time offered 5kohm.
To my knowledge Peter is using a Lamm with fixed 400ohm "load impedance", which will fit a standard XGP or XGW type but is a little low for the XPP. XPP will play on 400ohm a little darker and softer, which some listener will like. Nothing wrong with it.
The Van Den Hul site has some problems, but I'm not able to find anything that suggests that the XPP has a source impedance as high as 40 Ohms. It would need to be more than that for the 400 Ohms input impedance of the Lamm to affect it at all! So the difference, IMO is something else.
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Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I'm not parting with my MSS either. I like it so much that I have no itch to upgrade it to the Gran Cru. Plus I am using all Lamm
Shakti, it is a bit difficult to read, but the specification on the inside of my XPP box, line #7, states, Opt-load imp. >200 ohm. I thought it was 1,200 ohm but comparing the symbol just before the 200 ohm looks like a ">" and not a "1" as seen in line #3: 1.35-1.50 grams. Look at the ">" just one line down which reads "output level > 0.40 mV...." See below, right box:
So, if it is indeed optimum load imp. >200 ohm, my Lamm LP2.1 phono stage should be fine.
The only thing that really matters to me is that it sounds good, which it does.
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This is the most important matter! Just enjoy
if you use google regarding XPP you will find some comments regarding the DC resistance of the XPP. I was using some time a current increasing Phonostage, which had some problems with XPP, so I was in contact to "the master" and learned about the high DC resistance of the platinum coil. But as said, the cart will work above 200 ohms. Using IO signature I preferred finally 1kohm above the 5kohm. In comparison. XGP was running best between 200 and 300 ohms.
I bought now platinum headshell wires ,which are giving me a little back of the XPW magic .
( I ended up with a XPW version, which I still miss)
it was the .38 mv Colibri.......
this one.....mentioned at the end of this 2017 review by Myles....
van den Hul Colibri XGW Stradivarius Moving Coil Cartridge
van den Hul Colibri XGW Stradivarius Moving Coil Cartridge review
positive-feedback.com
Yes, it was a nice listening session yesterday at Peter's place. It was great to meet you, Andy!
A lot of the music sounded enjoyable, but the highlight of the session was for me a recording that Andy brought, a masterpiece by Stravinsky, "The Flood", a gem from his late, serial period (written in 1962):
Igor Stravinsky, Laurence Harvey, Columbia Symphony Orchestra, Robert Craft - The Flood - A Biblical Allegory Based On Noah And The Ark
View credits, reviews, tracks and shop for the 1962 Vinyl release of "The Flood - A Biblical Allegory Based On Noah And The Ark" on Discogs.www.discogs.com
(click on the small image in the link to see all five images enlarged)
It is a quirky piece, with some quirky humor, too. The brief, sudden instrumental flickerings were presented with great vividness and dynamics, as were the vocals. In fact, I would say that the presentation was extraordinarily dynamic overall, and incredibly engaging to me as listener -- a great way to hear this work for the first time. It was Peter's system at its best, for me. We listened with the Colibri XPP, and I was also pleased that I did not miss HF extension, unlike at other times listening to Peter's system. I also found HF extension fine on the other recordings that we listened to, all with the XPP cartridge.
On this particular recording we also did a brief comparison with the Master Signature, and the difference was not subtle, in favor of the XPP cartridge. The presentation had more clarity with the XPP, considerably better dynamics and, as Andy said, more color. It also sounded more open, and with the Master Signature I had again a feeling of somewhat lacking extension and air. There just seemed to be a better synergy of the XPP cartridge with Peter's system. This was a comparison on just one recording though; I joined later in the session, and Andy may have heard more comparisons between the two cartridges.
Dramatic. That's the word I was looking for. The presentation of Stravinsky's "The Flood" was dramatic on Peter's system. The drama extended to other music as well, but this one particular stood out for me. I like drama and excitement in music and when it is faithfully transmitted by a system, so I enjoyed this very much.
Peter, I'm vaguely recalling you telling me you bought a Solti/Mahler LP - maybe the 8th. I would love to watch a video of your Lamm/Vitavox system playing it.
Tim, I’m afraid you’re mistaken. I don’t believe I have Mahler’s 8th. I will look, but I doubt it.
Hello Bartolo, You would be more than welcome. We’ll see if we can work something out perhaps after the holidays.
I was going by your comment in an earlier thread on Orchestral choral music and recordings. I had posted some album covers including a picture of the Solti/Mahler 8, and you replied.
No problem if you don't have it - I just was hoping to hear a video of your natural sounding Lamm/Vitavox combo playing some complex/challenging large scale music - besides the Meta/Scheherazade of course.
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