Natural Sound

[PeterA]

Well, Peter wrote that "The volume control is actually slightly lower", not up. As far as I remember Steve reported a decrease in the usual volume level after he perfected his cables.

Do you have measurements of the typical peak values when you listen to classical?

How many dB is each click? Whether one person's is up and another's is down is pretty irrelevant without measuring. Peter also made a point of commenting on lower level listening, which isn't a priority for many other people. It sure isn't a priority for me. So this becomes a matter of preference more than anything. Mine is up, I would guess. But that's probably a result of liking how it sounds at higher volume more now than before. Or it could be "new toy" syndrome ... Wanting to really hear what it can do now.

Fransisco, it is not really about measurements or whether the volume knob is up or down. It is about the perceived presentation at the listening seat. It is about the increased clarity and dynamic range that is the result when noise is lowered by better/cleaner power delivery. Each LP is different, just as different cartridges have different outputs. I can enjoy listening at slightly lower volumes because low level information is more clearly heard. At the same time, with the increased dynamics, the louder passages can seem louder, even at the lower volume setting. There is more sudden energy. This is why I mentioned lowering my volume knob. It is also more enjoyable at late night when overall volume may be lower. At the same time, if I want to crank some rock, I can do that and it plays cleaner and is more pleasant and fun at louder levels. For jazz and string quartets, I try to get a more realistic listening volume. This can mean up or down depending on the mic location and what I think is most realistic based on size of instruments and hall and where I think the listening perspective is based.

As others have remarked, these improvements result in a more balanced sound where quiet passages are softer and louder passages are louder. This sounds more realistic and natural relative to actual live music. It is less compressed. It is not unlike a well-tuned sailboat. The weather presents itself, and the skipper makes adjustments to direction and sail trim. When all is in balance, the boat tracks straight without the need for the helmsman to handle the tiller, and it stays on course. This is when you realize, set up and tuning are right.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Looks great , looks like a lot of natural sound to me

 

[PeterA]

No Peter. My question was exactly if the volume knob was up or down in a precise moment and conditions in a specific post you wrote. If you are not able to remember or do not want to answer, no problem. You do not need to write a long post - and interesting, BTW - but not relevant to my question, to obfuscate such fact.

Francisco, I tried to answer your question as directly as I could, meaning it all depends on what the recording is: how it was mic’d, the intended listening perspective and scale, and to some extent, the type of music and listening circumstances. I am unable to give you a precise measurement or exact answer to a question which I see as non-specific.

I respect your efforts to continuously challenge the points of view and opinions presented in this thread about my system and my thoughts about natural sound. The type of sound, how to achieve it, and what it means, seem to be difficult to grasp for some people. With your constant probing, it gives me and others a chance to expand on the topic with greater and greater details and reflection. I have learned quite a lot in the process of trying to articulate my thoughts in writing. It is not easy.

 

[microstrip]

Francisco, I tried to answer your question as directly as I could, meaning it all depends on what the recording is. How it was mic’s, The intended listening perspective and scale, and to some extent the type of music and listening circumstances. I am unable to give you a precise measurement or exact answer to a question which I see as non-specific.

I respect your efforts to continuously challenge the points of view and opinions presented in this thread about my system and my thoughts about natural sound. The type of sound, how to achieve it, and what it means, seem to be difficult to grasp for some people. With your constant probing, it gives me and others a chance to expand on the topic with greater and greater details and reflection. I have learned quite a lot in the process of trying to articulate my thoughts in writing. It is not easy.

My apologies Peter, I mixed your post with Tango comments on this issue. You had clearly answered my point, I have now deleted my careless post.

 

[bonzo75]

You had clearly answered my point, I have now deleted my careless post.

All of 'em?

 

[microstrip]

All of 'em?

Please ...

 

[Kingrex]

Did you select the panel wire specifically? I simply used run-of-the-mill stranded copper THHN commercial wire. I'm not sure how to assess its quality. And the only reason I went with stranded over solid core was that it was going to be easier to pull it through conduit.

I buy South Wire. Its still made in the US with older slower dies. I use solid as I can grain orient it and find which direction it performs best in. I then twist the wire before installing it to limit inductive and capacitive reactance, as well as a little noise rejection. I generally stay with PVC pipe but you did pull an isolated ground so you did the install correct. I also use solid as I have been told by people with advanced knowledge, solid does not couple with RF as much as stranded and it sheds RF better too. How much better, I don't know. But the grain orienting is a very notable difference. I blind test my wire over a weeks time via multiple test. Every time I test I come out with the same answer so its a heard phenomena.

I tried grain orienting Romex but in the roles I have, the ground is backwards.

I never use a wago with stranded. It relies on a small sprung piece of metal to make contact with the wire. It is far less effective than a wire nut. Stranded can compress under the spring, become loose and start to arc. Most of the arching and failed connections I find in the field are under a wago style connection. Wago is legal with stranded so you did not violate any rules.

 

[Kingrex]

Post #2628 and around it. The electrician made incremental changes during a period of a few weeks and I listened to each one before he did the next one to best understand the impact on sonics. There were four stages.

I ended up with a new dedicated service panel which has only the four 30 amp audio circuits on the same phase. The audio circuits are separate from the rest of the house but everything is bonded and grounded to the water pipe with new wire and connectors.

The overall improvement is significant.

I'm glad you set your power supply up correct.
You keep referring to your new panel as a service panel. I believe you are actually using a subpanel.

David has been open and sharing his knowledge of power with me over many years. I gave him a proprietary image a few weeks ago of how a subpanel should be terminated in your main panel. I don't know if he gave it to you, but its a key part of grounding no electrician I have met applies.

I'm still up in the air over a ground wire from a subpanel to the cold water. If you think about it, you now have microvolts that are going back to the utility neutral via 2 paths. One is the ground with the feeder wire that is bonded to the cold water in the service panel. The second is now through a ground wire under your house to the cold water, then back up the grounding electrode where it meets the ground from your feeder wire. This creates measurable voltage potentials than can be measured around 200mv or so at times.

But. It can sound good. Why???? RF is shed when you have a very short, very strait, always pointing down with little to no bends ground wire going to earth. Small solid wire works best for this. I theorize its possible the new ground is very well applied and even though you might or might not have circulating mv current, the shed of RF is a greater gain. But that is just a guess.

Don't forget, if you or anyone reading this also has digital, you need to get the Modem, Router, Switch on the same phase as the audio. Especially if your not optically connected. Otherwise you create voltage potential throughout the entire audio system as coax and ethernet are grounded cables. And you now have another parallel path to the cold water pipe (Intesystem Bonding Jumper bonding data utility at demarcation point). And the digital path has a lot more impedance than the feeder or branch circuit. Being on the same phase reduces voltage potential that reduces mv riding on the ground.

 

[bazelio]

I buy South Wire. Its still made in the US with older slower dies. I use solid as I can grain orient it and find which direction it performs best in. I then twist the wire before installing it to limit inductive and capacitive reactance, as well as a little noise rejection. I generally stay with PVC pipe but you did pull an isolated ground so you did the install correct. I also use solid as I have been told by people with advanced knowledge, solid does not couple with RF as much as stranded and it sheds RF better too. How much better, I don't know. But the grain orienting is a very notable difference. I blind test my wire over a weeks time via multiple test. Every time I test I come out with the same answer so its a heard phenomena.

I tried grain orienting Romex but in the roles I have, the ground is backwards.

I never use a wago with stranded. It relies on a small sprung piece of metal to make contact with the wire. It is far less effective than a wire nut. Stranded can compress under the spring, become loose and start to arc. Most of the arching and failed connections I find in the field are under a wago style connection. Wago is legal with stranded so you did not violate any rules.

I wondered about the wago but having pulled on it, the connection felt super solid to me when clamped down. It didn't feel loose at all. But maybe over time. We'll see. It's only used on one connection in the 6-outlet box, which is the non-isolated ground and that isn't connected to the audio gear receptacle which is on the isolated ground.

 

[Kingrex]

I wondered about the wago but having pulled on it, the connection felt super solid to me when clamped down. It didn't feel loose at all. But maybe over time. We'll see. It's only used on one connection in the 6-outlet box, which is the non-isolated ground and that isn't connected to the audio gear receptacle which is on the isolated ground.

Pulling on it is actually a good thing. It draws back against the sprung clip can help set it in place. It can also help crush the stranded wire flat and tight. And it will tell you if it did not set and pull out. It will be fine. Its in a metal box. Its the plastic boxes that become problematic when there is a fault and they melt from the heat.
I am convinced the major reason AFCI breakers are required now is because of the WAGO style connections that are built into the back of every pro grade switch and outlet sold at Home Depot and Lowes. They are super quick but suck. Especially when someone goes in and out of receptacles. The load can get high on the first receptacles carrying all the other on the branch and it eventually starts to arch and burn away the clip and wire.

 

[bazelio]

I read that there are Wago knockoff connectors out there which are pretty bad.

How do you connect solid and standard wire? Maybe the simple answer is "just don't".

 

[Folsom]

Pulling on it is actually a good thing. It draws back against the sprung clip can help set it in place. It can also help crush the stranded wire flat and tight. And it will tell you if it did not set and pull out. It will be fine. Its in a metal box. Its the plastic boxes that become problematic when there is a fault and they melt from the heat.
I am convinced the major reason AFCI breakers are required now is because of the WAGO style connections that are built into the back of every pro grade switch and outlet sold at Home Depot and Lowes. They are super quick but suck. Especially when someone goes in and out of receptacles. The load can get high on the first receptacles carrying all the other on the branch and it eventually starts to arch and burn away the clip and wire.

Can you link to a WAGO outlet style?

I know about back stabs… which are illegal in lots of states to use (not the socket, just the stab part, as many have screws too because of changes in law). Back stabs cause fires.

 

[rando]

How do you connect solid and standard wire? Maybe the simple answer is "just don't".

Flattening stranded wire slightly and wrapping it such that it ends equidistant to length of bare solid wire you then fold back upon itself is one solution. Trick is to use only as much wire as needed to create a secure tight wrap and then firmly and fully secure it. Bare wire corrodes or turns black from heavy use that can lead back inside the housing eventually.

If you wrap towards the cut end it fits in a wire nut. The opposite and you have a straight connection to be encapsulated as situation demands.

Edit: Same AWG only.

Can you link to a WAGO outlet style?

Here is a Hubbell 5262 Industrial grade outlet version with SnapConnect. Other brands use the same idea that lets an electrician spend a few seconds more inside the box terminating wires so untrained labor can do actual installs.

 

[bazelio]

Wow, I have never seen those. No thank you!

 

[Kingrex]

Can you link to a WAGO outlet style?

I know about back stabs… which are illegal in lots of states to use (not the socket, just the stab part, as many have screws too because of changes in law). Back stabs cause fires.

I am equating a back stab to a wago. My perception of a wago defaults to is a stab in connection. That is a lot of what I saw in the field. I did just look up their latest offerings and see where they have a lever connection that seems to compress the wire in place. I would find that an better connection.

 

[Kingrex]

I read that there are Wago knockoff connectors out there which are pretty bad.

How do you connect solid and standard wire? Maybe the simple answer is "just don't".

Here is a Hubbell 5262 Industrial grade outlet version with SnapConnect. Other brands use the same idea that lets an electrician spend a few seconds more inside the box terminating wires so untrained labor can do actual installs.

I have started to see snap connect. They are a good concept. I would not use duplex snap connect receptacle for audio for a variety of reason. FWIW, I love the Belden Revconnect ethernet terminals.

The receptacle and termination you did with your metal 3 gang box was acceptable Brian. Its actually pretty good.

I don't know I have ever heard you can not join stranded and solid under a wire nut. I have done it for years. There is a chart on the side of every wirenut box. You need to stay in the wire size range and quantity. This is my all time favorite go to wire nut. The label clearly shows the approved combinations of solid and stranded wire.

Terminating is more complex than people realize. People think they can just pick up some wire and make it up. Its a 5 year apprenticeship to be a journeyman. When you finally get your license, you think you know it all. At 7 years you realize you know very little. At 9 years you start to get it together.

I think this Hubbell is an interesting device. It comes with lead on it. If you were to use a Burndy C crimp, you would have an excellent connection on a few levels. But why, get a good Hubbell with a clamp on the phase, neutral and ground.

Straight Blade Devices, Receptacle, Decorator Duplex, 20A 125V, 2-Pole 3-Wire Grounding, 5-20R, White, Pre- Wired 8

Straight Blade Devices, Receptacle, Decorator Duplex, 20A 125V, 2-Pole 3-Wire Grounding, 5-20R, White, Pre- Wired 8 Stranded Leads.

www.hubbell.com

 

[bazelio]

@Kingrex I have wired stranded to solid with a wire nut too, but those connections generally concern me as they don't look clean at all after removing the nut. Rando's technique may be an improvement. The wago on a ground connection seems reasonable. I'm not worried about my technique there. The wago was rated for well over 20A. Should a fault occur, it's not supposed to become a fuse.

It's probably best to continue electrical convos in a different thread.

 

[PeterA]

As some read from the Munich show reports, van den Hul has released a new version of the Colibri Grand Cru. It is called the "Elite". I received a early iteration last winter. After listening to it for a week, I decided to have my two Grand Cru models modified/updated to this latest version. I sent them to The Netherlands in early February where they sat in Amsterdam customs for three months and were finally returned to me without explanation. Fearing that I would never seen them again, I was sure glad to have them sent back. Mr. van den Hul suggested I use a different carrier and try again. This time I sent only one. Two weeks later, it was returned with a "GCE" written on the small wood front face.

I set it up yesterday and am starting to break it in. As owners of these cartridges have reported, one never quite knows how these will sound. Each sample is an individual work of art, slightly different from the others. I prefer my first "Elite" to both my original "Master Signature" which was upgraded to Grand Cru status, and to my "5R" Grand Cru. I am happy to report that this new "Elite" is just as good or better than the first one. I will send my other Colibri back for this modification as well.

After I have some time on this new one, I will share in more detail my listening impressions. It has a lower output of 0.25mV which seems to work well in this system.

 

[tima]

Each sample is an individual work of art, slightly different from the others.

Wonderful photography Peter. Would you take a picture of inside the GCE box lid, please.

 

[PeterA]

Wonderful photography Peter. Would you take a picture of inside the GCE box lid, please.