Natural Sound

[tima]

View attachment 94480

Thanks.

I'm going to speculate that cartridge had been your 5R instance and it was upgraded to Grand Cru Elite. The name, load impedance range, and optimal impedance appear updated by vdH, maybe the output level - not sure there.

I am curious about what makes a MS turn into a GC or a GC turn into a GCE, and thought maybe there would be a clue in the specs. I don't see that. Do you have information on the differences that you can share?

 

[PeterA]

Thanks.

I'm going to speculate that cartridge had been your 5R instance and it was upgraded to Grand Cru Elite. The name, load impedance range, and optimal impedance appear updated by vdH, maybe the output level - not sure there.

I am curious about what makes a MS turn into a GC or a GC turn into a GCE, and thought maybe there would be a clue in the specs. I don't see that. Do you have information on the differences that you can share?

I do not see any of those clues either Tim. I did request a lowering of the output, so on the box lid you can see where the old value was scraped off and the new value of 0.25 mV was written in.

One of the things that makes the Master Signature design is the high output of 1.1 mV. This was achieved with a bigger magnet and more windings. When visually comparing my various samples, the only thing that looks different is the number of windings, but this seems to correlate with the lower outputs I request and not the model designations.

The only difference that I was told about the various designs is the damper. Otherwise everything is a complete mystery because they look very similar with just slight differences in the dimension of the magnet, ring and structure holding the cantilever. I will say that in these newer designs, the cartridge seems more susceptible to slight changes in vertical tracking force.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I wasn't sure which thread to pop this post on, but Peter's seemed the most appropriate.
Returned last night from a concert that is effectively in my top three ever (the other two shading it purely on nostalgia value, so effectively this concert is my best live experience, unparalleled).
Beethoven Fantasia in C Min Op 80 Choral Fantasy, and Symphony No. 9 in D Min Op 135 Choral.
Oxford Philharmonic Orchestra at Sheldonian Hall in Oxford.
Marios Papadopoulos, conductor/piano.
Featuring Philharmonischer Chor der Stadt Bonn.
--
Had a tempting glimpse earlier in afternoon as walked past the venue to hear rehearsals, knew something very special was brewing.
I said to Ra as we struggled with a tedious 3 hour drive in that I hoped the concert wouldn't disappoint...little did I suspect.
The venue is amazing, one of the most beautiful buildings you could imagine to spend time in listening to music, big enough for full orchestral swell, but small enough to feel really close to the musicians.
I can't think of many more perfect environments for this.
And a really enthused audience.
I'm not a super clued up classical addicionado, so even a piece like the 9th, I come to live as if I've never heard it before, just with some familiarity.
I can categorically say that the whole experience was uplifting on all levels. From an orchestra totally in command, to a choir that just have you in goosebumps. Fantastic as a broad canvas and on individual levels.
For the first time really, I was able to tune into individual aspects with the performance, so sympathetic were the acoustics of the hall.
Helped by being so effectively with the performers related to the size of venue and proximity of audience.
For me the star of the show was Tristan Fry, the tympani player. I followed him throughout the whole performance, so bold, reflexive and articulate was his playing. Indeed this piece may be my fave now for tympani.
My mind of course drifted on to how this sound relates to what we're trying to achieve and indeed what we should be trying to achieve.
For one, I know I have "work to do" lol. Two, I know what systems and topologies I strongly believe start to approximate this sonic piece of heaven. Three, this was the perfect encapsulation of what I consider to be Natural Sound, this performance in this hall especially defining sound that doesn't draw any attention to itself other than the sheer joy of the moment, yet comprised of critical features like bloom, richness, drama and soul.
I can't thank Ked enough for convincing me to buy tickets, this experience is gonna live in the memory.

 

[bonzo75]

I wasn't sure which thread to pop this post on, but Peter's seemed the most appropriate.
Returned last night from a concert that is effectively in my top three ever (the other two shading it purely on nostalgia value, so effectively this concert is my best live experience, unparalleled).
Beethoven Fantasia in C Min Op 80 Choral Fantasy, and Symphony No. 9 in D Min Op 135 Choral.
Oxford Philharmonic Orchestra at Sheldonian Hall in Oxford.
Marios Papadopoulos, conductor/piano.
Featuring Philharmonischer Chor der Stadt Bonn.
--
Had a tempting glimpse earlier in afternoon as walked past the venue to hear rehearsals, knew something very special was brewing.
I said to Ra as we struggled with a tedious 3 hour drive in that I hoped the concert wouldn't disappoint...little did I suspect.
The venue is amazing, one of the most beautiful buildings you could imagine to spend time in listening to music, big enough for full orchestral swell, but small enough to feel really close to the musicians.
I can't think of many more perfect environments for this.
And a really enthused audience.
I'm not a super clued up classical addicionado, so even a piece like the 9th, I come to live as if I've never heard it before with some familiarity.
I can categorically say that the whole experience was uplifting on all levels. From an orchestra totally in command, to a choir that just have you goosebumps. Fantastic as a broad canvas and on individual levels.
For the first time really, I was able to tune into individual aspects with the performance, so sympathetic were the acoustics of the hall.
Helped by being so effectively with the performers related to the size of venue and proximity of audience.
For me the star of the show was Tristan Fry, the tympani player. I followed him throughout the whole performance, so bold, reflexive and articulate was his playing. Indeed this piece may be my fave now for tympani.
My mind of course drifted on to how this sound relates to what we're trying to achieve and indeed what we should be trying to achieve.
For one, I know I have "work to do" lol. Two, I know what systems and topologies I strongly believe start to approximate this sonic piece of heaven. Three, this was the perfect encapsulation of what I consider to be Natural Sound, this performance in this hall especially defining sound that doesn't draw any attention to itself other than the sheer joy of the moment, yet comprised of critical features like bloom, richness, drama and soul.
I can't thank Ked enough for convincing me to buy tickets, this experience is gonna live in the memory.

Marc is the guy with the bald patch

 

[bonzo75]

View attachment 94509

I wasn't sure which thread to pop this post on, but Peter's seemed the most appropriate.
Returned last night from a concert

I normally put any concert updates here

Recent Concerts You've Enjoyed

Thought this might be a fun thread and a way to find out about acts on tour. My wife and I saw the Smoke Fairies at the Tractor Tavern last evening as the opening act for Rasputina. The Smoke Fairies are a 'folk blues' duo from Wales and have been described as "Bob Dylan's dream." I thought...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[spiritofmusic]

Marc is the guy with the bald patch

Yep, that's me, can't deny.
As they say "with great baldness comes great wisdom"
Or is that virility? Better ask Ra...

 

[spiritofmusic]

View attachment 94509


I normally put any concert updates here

Recent Concerts You've Enjoyed

Thought this might be a fun thread and a way to find out about acts on tour. My wife and I saw the Smoke Fairies at the Tractor Tavern last evening as the opening act for Rasputina. The Smoke Fairies are a 'folk blues' duo from Wales and have been described as "Bob Dylan's dream." I thought...

www.whatsbestforum.com

Well, if any sound I've ever heard ticks the Natural Sound box, it was this one. Hence me posting here.

 

[Argonaut]

View attachment 94509


I normally put any concert updates here

Recent Concerts You've Enjoyed

Thought this might be a fun thread and a way to find out about acts on tour. My wife and I saw the Smoke Fairies at the Tractor Tavern last evening as the opening act for Rasputina. The Smoke Fairies are a 'folk blues' duo from Wales and have been described as "Bob Dylan's dream." I thought...

www.whatsbestforum.com

My money was on the floral skirt

 

[Kingrex]

I have sent 2 cartridge to Soundsmith. As far as I know, they use hands and tools also. Under a microscope you can see whats going on and yes, Its a bit of a gamble in how stressed, in a hurry or comfortable and in the groove was the tech. My last one came back looking very good. I really don't know enough about cartridge to know if it sounds like it should.

 

[Kingrex]

Drums at a live show really stand out to me. They come through so different than from a stereo. I got in a mood and put in my 45 rpm grateful dead . I never realized how good the drummer was.

 

[morricab]

I wasn't sure which thread to pop this post on, but Peter's seemed the most appropriate.
Returned last night from a concert that is effectively in my top three ever (the other two shading it purely on nostalgia value, so effectively this concert is my best live experience, unparalleled).
Beethoven Fantasia in C Min Op 80 Choral Fantasy, and Symphony No. 9 in D Min Op 135 Choral.
Oxford Philharmonic Orchestra at Sheldonian Hall in Oxford.
Marios Papadopoulos, conductor/piano.
Featuring Philharmonischer Chor der Stadt Bonn.
--
Had a tempting glimpse earlier in afternoon as walked past the venue to hear rehearsals, knew something very special was brewing.
I said to Ra as we struggled with a tedious 3 hour drive in that I hoped the concert wouldn't disappoint...little did I suspect.
The venue is amazing, one of the most beautiful buildings you could imagine to spend time in listening to music, big enough for full orchestral swell, but small enough to feel really close to the musicians.
I can't think of many more perfect environments for this.
And a really enthused audience.
I'm not a super clued up classical addicionado, so even a piece like the 9th, I come to live as if I've never heard it before, just with some familiarity.
I can categorically say that the whole experience was uplifting on all levels. From an orchestra totally in command, to a choir that just have you in goosebumps. Fantastic as a broad canvas and on individual levels.
For the first time really, I was able to tune into individual aspects with the performance, so sympathetic were the acoustics of the hall.
Helped by being so effectively with the performers related to the size of venue and proximity of audience.
For me the star of the show was Tristan Fry, the tympani player. I followed him throughout the whole performance, so bold, reflexive and articulate was his playing. Indeed this piece may be my fave now for tympani.
My mind of course drifted on to how this sound relates to what we're trying to achieve and indeed what we should be trying to achieve.
For one, I know I have "work to do" lol. Two, I know what systems and topologies I strongly believe start to approximate this sonic piece of heaven. Three, this was the perfect encapsulation of what I consider to be Natural Sound, this performance in this hall especially defining sound that doesn't draw any attention to itself other than the sheer joy of the moment, yet comprised of critical features like bloom, richness, drama and soul.
I can't thank Ked enough for convincing me to buy tickets, this experience is gonna live in the memory.

Chamber music is a better comparator to what a system can do because A) The scale can be coped with by good systems and B) It is easier to sit close and really soak in each instrument’s weight, tone and dynamics. This can then be compared in your aural memory.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Sure Brad, I'm just reporting on the concert I attended. I'm fully aware smaller scale stuff is more practical for making comparisons too.
This is just my best Natural Sound reference I can relate.

 

[Kingrex]

Just found this by accident. Happy to move power to another thread. Just though I would share this. It answers a lot of termination questions.

 

[tima]

Happy to move power to another thread.

Yes - that's a good idea - aggregate your knowledge. I think you could start your own thread on audio electrical topics. You have a termendous amount of knowledge to share. Burying that knowledge in small drips in other threads makes it v difficult to find. People need to know specific key words to search unrelated threads (like someone's system thread) whereas a dedicated thread or even a dedicated forum with multiple threads where topics are in thread titles helps keep things focused, easier to discover and easier to explore. Also, it might help other threads stay closer to their topics.

Hey @Steve Williams or @Ron Resnick - how about an "Audio Electrical Infrastructure" forum -- or some other name? Alternatively why not give Rex is own forum in the Audio Experts area? Rex, maybe you could gather up pertinent threads and messages that could move to such a forum to help get it started.

Rex, I'm not trying to tell you what to do, just offering an alternative to all the interesting electrical discussions floating around everywhere.

 

[bonzo75]

Sure Brad, I'm just reporting on the concert I attended. I'm fully aware smaller scale stuff is more practical for making comparisons too.
This is just my best Natural Sound reference I can relate.

I think we should stop attending symphonies, so that our aural memory only has small concerts. It will also help if we don't check out good performers. Then we can do better relating to some of those on audiophile labels. Also sit real close so that the enveloping "they are here" sound will bring the live show closer to audio.

 

[morricab]

I think we should stop attending symphonies, so that our aural memory only has small concerts. It will also help if we don't check out good performers. Then we can do better relating to some of those on audiophile labels. Also sit real close so that the enveloping "they are here" sound will bring the live show closer to audio.

Talk about twisting the meaning! I never said not to go to symphonies (not sure what the performers have to do with this discussion)...I said don't use recorded symphonic music to compare to live as there is no system on earth that will really do it justice. This makes it a poor comparator. There are some good live recordings that are not audiophile labels and with great performances...particularly with Jazz ensembles. I recommend going to any and all live performances that one can attend...just keep in mind the comparison with one's system has to be tempered with what a system can legitimately do in a realistic manner.

 

[Rensselaer]

Talk about twisting the meaning! I never said not to go to symphonies (not sure what the performers have to do with this discussion)...I said don't use recorded symphonic music to compare to live as there is no system on earth that will really do it justice. This makes it a poor comparator. There are some good live recordings that are not audiophile labels and with great performances...particularly with Jazz ensembles. I recommend going to any and all live performances that one can attend...just keep in mind the comparison with one's system has to be tempered with what a system can legitimately do in a realistic manner.

That final sentence, comparison of one's system with all live performances "has to be tempered with what a system can legitimately do in a realistic manner", is an extremely important concept to get across, or perhaps I should say, it is a concept I wish I had seen expressed in hi fi magazines and forums such as ours, a long time ago.

I am not denigrating PeterA's "Natural Sound", the subject of this thread, as I feel he has certainly put together an LP playback system that sounds lovely, and not at all un-natural. I am taking a slight segue back to what some have addressed on this thread, whether or not a system can playback music in such a way as to sound like a "live" performance.

I have spent several 10's of thousands trying to put together a system that would make vinyl playback sound like listening to a "live" performance. Whenever I went to hi-fi shows I looked for such a system but never found it. I assumed it was either because the equipment being demonstrated was not at the price point where such was possible or, in the case of the bigger names, that the show rooms were not ideal for showcasing or the equipment demonstrated. At the shows that I attended, I never came across one of those legendary systems of the printed media (ie. a top Koetsu cartridge playing vinyl over pure Kondo system, or a complete Shindo system including their field coil speakers) so continued to believe such was not only possible, but available for the right money. I joined the "What's Best" forum in hopes of learning what that system (or systems) are. Had I known that such was unobtainable, regardless of money spent, would I have spent as much on my system that I did? Probably not.

My point, and I accept that I might be the only one who is thinking this, is that it should be mentioned early on. I think the experts on this forum have a duty to preface advice or recommendations with the caveat "Although I sincerely believe that the product I speak of is "what's best"..., I do not claim that this or any other product will make your music playback sound "live" (or perhaps something similar expressed by the forum administrators up front whenever a new member joins). Perhaps I am wrong, are there systems out there that truly sound live, that blindfolded listeners could not tell the difference? If so, please enlighten me.

 

[PeterA]

My point, and I accept that I might be the only one who is thinking this, is that it should be mentioned early on. I think the experts on this forum have a duty to preface advice or recommendations with the caveat "Although I sincerely believe that the product I speak of is "what's best"..., I do not claim that this or any other product will make your music playback sound "live" (or perhaps something similar expressed by the forum administrators up front whenever a new member joins). Perhaps I am wrong, are there systems out there that truly sound live, that blindfolded listeners could not tell the difference? If so, please enlighten me.

The closest system I’ve heard is in Utah. I do not think it is indistinguishable from live, but it gets close and makes one think about the how’s and why’s. I have a good local friend here who is getting back into audio. He is on his way to visit David right now and will be there for about five days. I suspect he will return with a new appreciation for natural sound and some ideas about how to achieve it.

 

[tima]

My point, and I accept that I might be the only one who is thinking this, is that it should be mentioned early on. I think the experts on this forum have a duty to preface advice or recommendations with the caveat "Although I sincerely believe that the product I speak of is "what's best"..., I do not claim that this or any other product will make your music playback sound "live" (or perhaps something similar expressed by the forum administrators up front whenever a new member joins). Perhaps I am wrong, are there systems out there that truly sound live, that blindfolded listeners could not tell the difference? If so, please enlighten me.

You put some thought into your post and I enjoyed reading it.

I don't know that we need a caveat statement. Few claim something is best. And I think there is pretty well understood distinction between reality and reproduction - I know I can tell when I'm hearing live music and when I'm not. I'd go so far to say that if someone tells you xyz system sounds live, I'd ask them to say more, it may be hyperbole or how they are using certain words. Although I have heard quite a few systems and components, none of them are indistinquishable from the sound of live music. I have not read posts hear claiming otherwise.

There is, imo, a difference between natural as it is used here and live music. I take natural as a guide, a reference as I work toward a system that sounds closer to what I hear in a live concert. I've learned how orchestral instruments sound in a context and think I have a sense of when my stereo sounds closer to that sound than not.

 

[Rensselaer]

You put some thought into your post and I enjoyed reading it.

I don't know that we need a caveat statement. Few claim something is best. And I think there is pretty well understood distinction between reality and reproduction - I know I can tell when I'm hearing live music and when I'm not. I'd go so far to say that if someone tells you xyz system sounds live, I'd ask them to say more, it may be hyperbole or how they are using certain words. Although I have heard quite a few systems and components, none of them are indistinquishable from the sound of live music. I have not read posts hear claiming otherwise.

There is, imo, a difference between natural as it is used here and live music. I take natural as a guide, a reference as I work toward a system that sounds closer to what I hear in a live concert. I've learned how orchestral instruments sound in a context and think I have a sense of when my stereo sounds closer to that sound than not.

In respect to your last paragraph tima, and what I previously wrote, I would like to clarify that I accept there is no system that sounds convincingly "real", all the time. Any future changes to my system will be as Peter has done and work towards a system that, like his, sounds "natural", and by that I mean being able to sit back and enjoy recorded music, as it was recorded, without being distracted by anything not recorded but attributed to the playback system/hardware.