Natural Sound

[andromedaaudio]

I always thought this hobby was about listening .
Turns out i was completely wrong , lol

 

[tima]

Chief Peter.

View attachment 95366

One of my very favorite movies. The chief, Chingachgook, is leftmost. I'm pretty sure Peter will not be the last of the Mohicans. In that movie the character of bonzo is played by Wes Studi.

 

[andromedaaudio]

As much as some on WBF want to turn listening into some big (elitarian ) effort
The dictonary simply states what it is : pay attention to sound / listen to music

 

[tima]

I think there is a point to be made in differentiating between "natural sound" and "precise reproduction" of what is on the medium.

In the first case, we have set up the system so as to approach our perception fo live music.
In the second case we aimed at getting the system to extract and present the information contained on the medium in as precisely as possible, regardless of whether the original recording sounds natural or not.

How can I tell if my stereo yields precise reproduction?

 

[awsmone]

I think there is a point to be made in differentiating between "natural sound" and "precise reproduction" of what is on the medium.

In the first case, we have set up the system so as to approach our perception fo live music.
In the second case we aimed at getting the system to extract and present the information contained on the medium in as precisely as possible, regardless of whether the original recording sounds natural or not.

Very good point

 

[awsmone]

I think this is a good point to discuss. I would put myself into that camp but I don’t own Lamm. I do own SET and horns…but not vintage horns (ok 20 years old but not 50 or 60). I think modern horns and SET with similar level of thought and execution can at least equal Lamm. Modern horn execution can be worse or better than vintage from the examples I have heard.
For source, I think there is digital out there that can sound natural but I have found it needs tube output and usually R2R converters.

I was in no way excluding other electronic , just an observation about Lamm equipment Design goals

 

[awsmone]

As much as some on WBF want to turn listening into some big (elitarian ) effort
The dictonary simply states what it is : pay attention to sound / listen to music View attachment 95369

Wittgenstein’s Sprachspiel says word meaning is only obvious within the wordgame ( language game) it is used, and not any standalone meaning; and in this context I Believe Peter has created a word game and defined Natural in that game.

it seems others are not part of that word game and are trying to make it a standalone meaning

I could say “water“ and you say there is no water here, but what I meant is I am desperate for water having just walked out of the desert

so can we please get past semantics, or create a word game for WBF so we can all stick by it

 

[the sound of Tao]

Wittgenstein’s Sprachspiel says word meaning is only obvious within the wordgame ( language game) it is used, and not any standalone meaning; and in this context I Believe Peter has created a word game and defined Natural in that game.

it seems others are not part of that word game and are trying to make it a standalone meaning

I could say “water“ and you say there is no water here, but what I meant is I am desperate for water having just walked out of the desert

so can we please get past semantics, or create a word game for WBF so we can all stick by it

At this point it certainly does seem that not too many of the dead horses remain in an unflogged state here.

 

[awsmone]

At this point it certainly does seem that not too many of the dead horses remain in an unflogged state here.

Lol

 

[andromedaaudio]

Wittgenstein’s Sprachspiel says word meaning is only obvious within the wordgame ( language game) it is used, and not any standalone meaning; and in this context I Believe Peter has created a word game and defined Natural in that game.

it seems others are not part of that word game and are trying to make it a standalone meaning

I could say “water“ and you say there is no water here, but what I meant is I am desperate for water having just walked out of the desert

so can we please get past semantics, or create a word game for WBF so we can all stick by it

i guess i dont need to bother you with a Albert einstein quote then ;

“Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction.”​

? Albert Einstein

Ps i m certainly not implying i m a genius , but looking at the thread i thought it was fitting

 

[PeterA]

i guess i dont need to bother you with a Albert einstein quote then ;

“Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction.”​

? Albert Einstein

Ps i m certainly not implying i m a genius , but looking at the thread i thought it was fitting

I agree. This process began with my old system. During those last two years of experimenting with set up, things became invariably simpler. And in the process, the sound became more natural.

I am about to embark on some experiments in my system. The only question I will be asking myself is: does this sound more or less natural. This is one of the most important things I learned from David Karmeli. His approach to system building and set up is a good example of this. His turntable design is an exercise in reduction until nothing further can be removed.

 

[andromedaaudio]

The problem with high end audio is , one cannot apply a Natural sound testbench /measurement system .
So its prone to endless opiniated /discussions DAC A versus B , Cable C versus D Cone E versus Horn F etc .... etc ...

None of these discussions can ever be won , beauty is in the eye of the beholder .

 

[PeterA]

The problem with high end audio is , one cannot apply a Natural sound testbench /measurement system .
So its prone to endless opiniated /discussions DAC A versus B , Cable C versus D Cone E versus Horn F etc .... etc ...

None of these discussions can ever be won , beauty is in the eye of the beholder .

All one has to do is listen and then decide. There is no need for measurements for the listener. It is pretty simple, really. And there is no effort to win anything. What is there to win anyway? That makes no sense. People do what they wish.

I do not have endless discussions about DACs or cables. No interest. Differences between horns and some other speakers, on the other hand....

 

[morricab]

All one has to do is listen and then decide. There is no need for measurements for the listener. It is pretty simply, really. And there is no effort to win anything. What is there to win anyway? That makes no sense. People do what they wish.

I do not have endless discussions about DACs or cables. No interest. Differences between horns and some other speakers, on the other hand....

You are assuming that all listeners are created equal...at least in every other field of endeavor this is simply not true no matter how much societies try to level playing fields...

 

[microstrip]

i guess i dont need to bother you with a Albert einstein quote then ;

“Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction.”​

? Albert Einstein

Ps i m certainly not implying i m a genius , but looking at the thread i thought it was fitting

Unfortunately sometimes people use this quote to justify their lack of knowledge and inability to deal with complex things. Stereo sound reproduction will always be a a complex thing, as it is mostly empirical, although with some scientific support, involving perceptual science. The high-end brings a diversity that makes it even more complex.

IMHO in order to move in the "opposite direction " we would need a complete knowledge of the fundamentals, something we do not have.

 

[andromedaaudio]

You are assuming that all listeners are created equal...at least in every other field of endeavor this is simply not true no matter how much societies try to level playing fields...

Morricab wants this bloody / endless battle to continue .
No ceasefire here .

The only place this listening battle between so called advanced listeners and regular populist listeners can be won is ....

 

[andromedaaudio]

Unfortunately sometimes people use this quote to justify their lack of knowledge and inability to deal with complex things. Stereo sound reproduction will always be a a complex thing, as it is mostly empirical, although with some scientific support, involving perceptual science. The high-end brings a diversity that makes it even more complex.

IMHO in order to move in the "opposite direction " we would need a complete knowledge of the fundamentals, something we do not have.

Even a small kid can listen , there is no entry level / rotary club membership needed for this hobby , although i think a lot would love to

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, I have not pulled the plug just yet. I do not need any fire burning. Nor does ddk’s “tribe” need to be riled up as you claimed earlier. I have no idea what you are even talking about. I would actually prefer it if this thread were only twenty pages long full of on-topic content. Regretfully, there has been too much noise and distraction lately. I’ve actually had much more interesting discussions off-line about my system and natural sound.

Hi Peter, I know we don't see eye to eye on aspects pertaining to your thread.
Fwiw, if the thread was about natural sound, I'd have no issues, remember I too am smitten by horns/tubes/vinyl, especially at Audiophile Bill's. I've heard no more natural sound in hifi than at his, nothing else comes close.
So I'm strongly in the horns/SETs equals potential closest approach to natural.
But once your thread went from natural sound to Natural Sound, my antennae started quivering. Now we're talking proprietary approach to an outcome, exclusivity through language, and I've always rebelled against terminology used in that way, whether religion, politics or lifestyle choices.
Finding an approach to natural sound, who could object?
Finding Natural Sound, I see barriers erecting.

 

[morricab]

Even a small kid can listen , there is no entry level / rotary club membership needed for this hobby , although i think a lot would love to

THere have been studies with functional MRI that this is not really true...

 

[andromedaaudio]

THere have been studies with functional MRI that this is not really true...

Sure as you will .
Thats why i suggested a seperate Horn section , so the " elite " can be by themselves