Natural Sound

[microstrip]

(...) All of their products are great, but the Signature series (and ML2) is really quite special. It is all very exciting.

Congratulations Peter. All you need now is the ML3!

 

[brad225]

Congratulations on you new acquisition. I love the look of your Vitavox speakers.

 

[Lagonda]

Wow Peter ! Congratulations !

 

[Cellcbern]

I recently learned an important lesson: The presentation of music from open back corner horn speakers can improve with careful fine tuning of position and orientation.

I had known from experimenting with my former Magico speakers that the sound improved when I made very small adjustments to optimize their position and orientation and symmetry. I simply assumed that my corner horns would not benefit from such attention. I was wrong.

I live in an old house with uneven floorboards, sloping floors and non smooth, non vertical walls. These imperfections from what one might expect of new, modern construction are not huge, but they seem to matter. The floor at each corner slopes downward slightly, one corner more than the other. The walls are not quite plum. The speakers include instructions for foam strips along the top edge of the base cabinet and vertically in the back corner, symmetrical for each side. The rear corner of the bass cabinet is actually cut short by a few inches. Each side with the wall forms the flare of a rear loaded bass horn. For improved bass response and coupling to the walls and room, Vitavox recommends sealing these four edges per speaker with a dense foam.

About a week ago I removed the top cabinet enclosing each compression driver, horn unit and crossover. DDK suggested I place a spirit level on the top of the bass cabinet. It is a flat surface and supports the horn and crossover. I noticed that each speaker tilted forward, one slightly more than the other and that each speaker was slightly tilted.

The furniture designer who built my rack cut very precisely a series of 2.5" X 2.5" wood shims varying in thickness by 1/32". I had four samples of ten different thickness to play with. These were made to use to level my equipment rack on my uneven floor. I had a bunch of shims left over, so I decided to place a few in combination under each of the front corners of each speaker. The CN-191 cabinets have hard brass furniture disks hammered into the wood like a large tack at the two front corners, so the bottom of the cabinets are slightly raised off of the floor anyway. I placed the shims under these brass disks.

During this process, I noticed that I could slide each speaker slightly deeper into each corner and orient them for a more even/uniform fit compressing the foam a bit further and creating a better seal with the wall. The speakers were raised roughly 1/4" to 5/8" in the front and adjusted by 1/32" to 3/16" side to side. Now plum and level and more tightly pushed into the corners, I placed the horn cabinet back on top of the bass cabinet and listened to some music.

The sound was immediately different. There was more bass energy and focus, but something was slightly off. There was also a bit more contrast but less nuance. I was surprised that it had such an effect on the presentation. I knew from initially installing the speakers, that these sixty year old cabinets needed time to settle and to acclimate to the new environment (temperature/humidity). At that time, the electronics and drivers also needed time to loosen up after being rarely used for so many years. I decided to wait a while before listening critically to the changes with a larger variety of music.

The sound continued to change a bit and after three or four days, the system was settled and stable. Music basically sounds more natural than it did before, more present, more alive. The four strings in a quartet have more distinct timbre. Resolution has improved so I hear a more realistic presentation of both the notes' fundamentals and harmonics. There is more nuance in the playing and volume changes. The lower cello notes have more power, the body resonates more, and all the strings have more weight. The same with piano. The notes are clearer, the highs are cleaner and the lows have a new heft and weight. There is more body to the whole range. The pianist's left and right hands are easier to follow.

I played the Sheffield Drum Track. I like this for sheer power and dynamics, but much can also be learned from the different percussion tones. The kick/bass drum is more solid and explosive, the brush work is cleaner and more delicate. The cymbals have more tonal color, more brass tone, and they are less hard/white/splashy sounding. The snare drum sounds less congealed, so each lightning quick tap is more distinct and clean. The overall pace and flow is more engaging. There is more energy filling the room.

These speakers have open backs, so how they couple with the walls seems to be very important. The walls are in essence a part of the cabinet. The orientation of the mid/upper horn also seems to matter. They are now level and even which I think likely contributes to the increased focus I am hearing.

It is a fascinating hobby, and there seems to be so much to learn. I continue to respect and appreciate the importance of set up within a particular room context. And despite having a fairly stable system now, I continue to experiment and look for ways to improve the sound. Oddly enough, I thought to check the speakers' positioning/orientation after I read someone's comment to Ron in his system thread about the importance of confirming that his four speaker towers were all plum. It is strange how these things develop.

FYI - stumbled on this and thought about your corner horn/room/system. Apologies in advance if there is nothing new or useful in it:

Corner-Horn Imaging FAQ

The is the third in a series of FAQs ("Frequently-Asked Questions") , the first of which was the Klipsch serial number FAQ, and the second is the Active Bi-amping/Triamping FAQ. This thread discusses corner-horn loudspeaker imaging, in particular, how to achieve outstanding imaging, and typically...

community.klipsch.com

 

[dcathro]

I brought an old mobile rack on wheels and two large steel plates from my old system and assembled a temporary rack for the two new power supplies and began to unpack and install my new Lamm LP1 three box phono stage:

View attachment 109221

View attachment 109222

View attachment 109223

Wow Peter, Congratulations! That is a whole Lot of Lamm!

I am sure it won't be the very last piece of your puzzle - is it ever?

 

[PeterA]

Congratulations Peter. All you need now is the ML3!

Fransisco, I appreciate the effort, but "need" is not how I would characterize it. That too is a superb amplifier.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Fransisco, I appreciate the effort, but "need" is not how I would characterize it. That too is a superb amplifier.

no. need is exactly how you should characterize it. time to finish the deal. dot the 'i', cross the 't'.

M L 3.....M L 3. i can hear it.......

or get some more efficient speakers for the ML2's.

 

[PeterA]

Wow Peter, Congratulations! That is a whole Lot of Lamm!

I am sure it won't be the very last piece of your puzzle - is it ever?

Perhaps not the very last piece of the puzzle, but I do not see any pieces missing or lying on the floor. My father designed and manufactured custom wooden jigsaw puzzles. This one is of a church ceiling my grandfather photographed years ago. Here my daughter and I put are putting together this particularly dastardly example during the shutdown when there was plenty of time to sit around. Of course music played in the background and the breaks to get up and flip sides were welcome. Like assembling a good audio system, these puzzles were sold in boxes without pictures to help guide the assembler.

 

[PeterA]

no. need is exactly how you should characterize it. time to finish the deal. dot the 'i', cross the 't'.

M L 3.....M L 3. i can hear it.......

or get some more efficient speakers for the ML2's.

Mike, The deal is indeed finished now. I think you are teasing.

Yes, people do use the 32 watt ML3s on speakers that are 110-115 dB with superb results. I use perhaps 1 or 2 watts when playing music loud. I have read that distortion starts to become an issue at around 6 watts or 1/3 maximum output.

My speakers are simple two-way, full horn design, 105 dB efficient and 16 ohm load, playing at normal levels in a small room. I use very little power. When asked which speakers he recommended with his newly released ML2 amplifiers, Vladimir Lamm actually suggested an early/original version Vitavox CN-191.

 

[Lagonda]

no. need is exactly how you should characterize it. time to finish the deal. dot the 'i', cross the 't'.

M L 3.....M L 3. i can hear it.......

or get some more efficient speakers for the ML2's.

You are being mean Mike, let Peter enjoy his new peamp for awhile before putting expensive ideas in his head ! Unless Micro is having a "dust collector's special" on his M L 3 !

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, The deal is indeed finished now. I think you are teasing.

Yes, people do use the 32 watt ML3s on speakers that are 110-115 dB with superb results. I use perhaps 1 or 2 watts when playing music loud. I have read that distortion starts to become an issue at around 6 watts or 1/3 maximum output.

My speakers are simple two-way, full horn design, 105 dB efficient and 16 ohm load, playing at normal levels in a small room. I use very little power. When asked which speakers he recommended with his newly released ML2 amplifiers, Vladimir Lamm actually suggested an early/original version Vitavox CN-191.

yes, just teasing a little. congrats on the LP1!

i owned an LP2 Deluxe back in the day, and have heard the LP1....it's a big step up.

 

[PeterA]

You are being mean Mike, let Peter enjoy his new peamp for awhile before putting expensive ideas in his head ! Unless Micro is having a "dust collector's special" on his M L 3 !

The ML3 will happen when I move into a new house with a large dedicated room and I use my ML2s for a pair ddk’s massive new sub design. In my dreams.

 

[PeterA]

yes, just teasing a little. congrats on the LP1!

i owned an LP2 Deluxe back in the day, and have heard the LP1....it's a big step up.

Mike, did you directly compare the two phono stages or did you hear them in different systems? How would you describe the differences?

 

[Lagonda]

The ML3 will happen when I move into a new house with a large dedicated room and I use my ML2s for a pair ddk’s massive new sub design. In my dreams.

Peter you are pretty good at making your dreams come true when you want to !

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, did you directly compare the two phono stages or did you hear them in different systems?

different systems. it was in my system from 2001--2005. then heard the LP1 in David's system 6 or so years ago and Steve's system twice.

How would you describe the differences?

my "gut" is a couple orders of magnitude different. the LP2 Deluxe was a high quality phono, compared to my previous Aesthetix Io and then my next phono (original dart pre internal) afterwards. i preferred the LP2 to the Io, but preferred the dart phono to the LP2. but they were all three in the same general performance level. the internal dart pre was battery powered and needed no interconnect. so it had some advantages.

the LP1 has more scale, dynamics, and a richer more complex presentation. that was just what seemed apparent in two systems i've heard it in. it plays in another league. so does my new dart phono, and my silver EMIA w/2 power supplies and silver SUT's.

 

[PeterA]

Peter you are pretty good at making your dreams come true when you want to !

Milan, I am reminded of your dream of locating a pair of Martin Logan Statements in good condition, coercing a stranger to inspect them for you, and then getting someone on the other side of the world to arrange shipping for you. I have nothing on your ability to make your dreams come true.

 

[bonzo75]

Allnic 5000 and LP1 can be compared In Christian’s with various carts. Haven’t done it myself but would love to

 

[Lagonda]

Milan, I am reminded of your dream of locating a pair of Martin Logan Statements in good condition, coercing a stranger to inspect them for you, and then getting someone on the other side of the world to arrange shipping for you. I have nothing on your ability to make your dreams come true.

Yes i am listening to my "dream" right now, thank you again stranger !

 

[andromedaaudio]

The american dream

 

[microstrip]

You are being mean Mike, let Peter enjoy his new peamp for awhile before putting expensive ideas in his head ! Unless Micro is having a "dust collector's special" on his M L 3 !

As far as I was able to follow it this ML3 has a long career as a "dust collector's special" ...