Natural Sound

[Amir]

If any designer bridges the gulf between love of music and audiophilia it is Vladimir Lamm.

+1

 

[Amir]

Thanks Peter! Great read

 

[crosswind]

Congratulations with your new phonostage Peter.

A perfect start of the day here, reading your detailed listening impressions with my morning coffee. Really enjoyed it. Thank you.

 

[dcathro]

Good questions. I'm not Peter but I have long time tube experience. There are periods of time when my tub electronics are turned on 24/7 -- sometimes that is 3-4 days, it can also be 3-4 weeks. Your electricity bill will go up.

The more difficult time for a tube is when it is changing state -- when it goes from cold to fully operational and vice versa. Warm up time depends on the tube and circuit. Lamm recommends a minimum 45 minute warm-up. If cold, I will give the system 90 minutes warm-up before critical listening.

Imo, keeping tube gear on is not hard on the tubes. It is how they are meant to be used. Many tubes can last for years at their operating temperatures. However performance will drop over time for certain tubes. In the ML2/2.2 amps Peter and I use there is a pair of tubes (6NCP output driver) in each monoblock that Lamm suggests changing out once every year or two years, depending on whose documentation you read. The large more expensive 6C33C tubes will last 2-3 years of constant operation assuming plate voltages are properly maintained; best to keep those a bit under maximum. The large GM-70 tubes in the ML3 amps have a recommended 1-1½ year change out period.

Nonetheless heat is the enemy of any electronic gear. It is important to keep tubes clean. Handling them with your bare hands can transfer skin oils and dirt onto the glass. If the glass gets dirty, heat dissipation goes down and internal temperature goes up. Wipe them off with a cloth lightly dampened in alcohol and hold them with a cloth when inserting or removing. Wait for a fully dry surface before turn-on.

Decent ventilation in-rack is very important. Lamm front-end components are ~5½ inches tall. I suggest at least that much room above the component in a rack. On my SRA Scuttle racks there is ~10 inches above the component to the bottom of the shelf above. Optimally racks/shelves should be open front and back. It is not unheard for people to use small fans in tight racks when not listening. I will not put amplifiers in racks.

Given the variable availability of present day manufactury I suggest having two complete replacement tube sets for each component. Perhaps expensive but worthwhile peace of mind and you'll be thankful when/if a tube is no longer available. Russia cut off tube export when the Ukrainian conflict began. Among others, the popular Svetlana 6550C used in ARC power supplies and other gear remains out-of-stock at most US tube dealers.

Thank you for such a detailed explanation!

I had always assumed that everyone turned off tube gear when not in use.

My gear is SS and it has been a while since I ran tubed equipment.

 

[morricab]

Thank you for such a detailed explanation!

I had always assumed that everyone turned off tube gear when not in use.

My gear is SS and it has been a while since I ran tubed equipment.

I turn mine off because it takes about 30-40 minutes to sound about how it will sound and the rest is just wasting power and tube life. Also, I don't listen everyday, so why leave it on heating up the room?

 

[Al M.]

I turn mine off because it takes about 30-40 minutes to sound about how it will sound and the rest is just wasting power and tube life. Also, I don't listen everyday, so why leave it on heating up the room?

Same here. I have never heard from any other manufacturer of tube gear that you should leave it on. Never. Claiming that you should is the weirdest thing. Also, I don't want to set my house on fire.

 

[Argonaut]

Yup , Utter nonsense , In theory with 10000 hr 9 pin valves and again in theory large transmitting valves then yes , In practice and practicality simply Not necessary, If one must … fire the system up in the morning then power off when retiring.

 

[Ron Resnick]

No need for religious arguments here.

The more difficult time for a tube is when it is changing state -- when it goes from cold to fully operational and vice versa.

Tim is correct. This is a fact. The cycling process is aging to tubes.

Imo, keeping tube gear on is not hard on the tubes. It is how they are meant to be used. Many tubes can last for years at their operating temperatures.

Tim is correct. This is a fact.

Nonetheless heat is the enemy of any electronic gear.

Tim is correct. This is a fact.


How to weigh these facts is subjective. If I listened to my system every day or almost every day I would keep on all components (except the giant power amps).

Since I listen to my system probably an average of twice per week I choose to keep everything off.

I suspect the correct technical question for each tube in each piece of equipment is: how much wear and deterioration from keeping the component on continuously in hours is equivalent to the wear and deterioration of a single on/off/on cycle?

 

[microstrip]

(...) If any designer bridges the gulf between love of music and audiophilia it is Vladimir Lamm.

In another thread I would add some names ...

 

[Amir]

Same here. I have never heard from any other manufacturer of tube gear that you should leave it on. Never. Claiming that you should is the weirdest thing. Also, I don't want to set my house on fire.

Audio Note UK Peter Qvortrup recommends to leave on forever. His system is on forever.

I also believe it is better to leave on audio equipments specially Transport/DAC forever but actually most audiophiles does not do that.

 

[microstrip]

(...) All Lamm gear is powered on 24/7. (...)

Wow! Considering the cost of the Lamm selected eight 6H30 it is an expensive option for permanent use - I think you will need tipically two sets per year. I am happy with the Lamm sound after 45 minutes.

 

[DasguteOhr]

when starting up cold, tube devices with tube rectifiers have advantages. the anode voltage build-up takes longer to reach 100%. there is almost nothing to prevent tube devices from being left on unless you don't use them for days (a waste of energy). quick death only comes when tubes are only heated without switching on the anode voltage. This poisons the cathode (the ability to emit electrons suffers greatly from this)

 

[Argonaut]

How to weigh these facts is subjective. If I listened to my system every day or almost every day I would keep on all components (except the giant power amps).

This being the prescient point … Leaving 6C33C’s running 24/7 is not necessary and pretty stupid imho!

​

 

[microstrip]

Good questions. I'm not Peter but I have long time tube experience. There are periods of time when my tub electronics are turned on 24/7 -- sometimes that is 3-4 days, it can also be 3-4 weeks. Your electricity bill will go up.

Ok, but it seems you are addressing exceptional cases, not daily life.

The more difficult time for a tube is when it is changing state -- when it goes from cold to fully operational and vice versa. Warm up time depends on the tube and circuit. Lamm recommends a minimum 45 minute warm-up. If cold, I will give the system 90 minutes warm-up before critical listening.

IMO it is much more complicated than you are assuming. Depends on circuit and tube type. Poor manufacture tubes can have problems during warm-up due to leaks between glass and the pins, but it is not typical of the quality tubes used by audiophiles. Some negligent designers do not consider the transient conditions of their equipment during start-up, but fortunately these are exceptions. Surely many times tubes fail at startup, but this applies to long aged and warned tubes, not good tubes. In decently designed equipment, reasonable use of turn off/on does not affect tube life.

Imo, keeping tube gear on is not hard on the tubes. It is how they are meant to be used. Many tubes can last for years at their operating temperatures. However performance will drop over time for certain tubes. In the ML2/2.2 amps Peter and I use there is a pair of tubes (6NCP output driver) in each monoblock that Lamm suggests changing out once every year or two years, depending on whose documentation you read. The large more expensive 6C33C tubes will last 2-3 years of constant operation assuming plate voltages are properly maintained; best to keep those a bit under maximum. The large GM-70 tubes in the ML3 amps have a recommended 1-1½ year change out period.

Tube life is mainly due to cathode evaporation or poisoning for poor tubes. The life time is mostly due to current and time of operation. So it depends on specific equipment. Unfortunately Lamm defines tube lifetime inadequately - it should be defined in hours of operation, as done by VTL or ARC.

Nonetheless heat is the enemy of any electronic gear. It is important to keep tubes clean. Handling them with your bare hands can transfer skin oils and dirt onto the glass. If the glass gets dirty, heat dissipation goes down and internal temperature goes up. Wipe them off with a cloth lightly dampened in alcohol and hold them with a cloth when inserting or removing. Wait for a fully dry surface before turn-on.

Sorry Tim, IMO this looks mostly like superstition to me, unless our tubes have a thick layer of dirt on them. I always manipulate tubes with my (clean) hands and wipe them with a common dirt cloth mostly for looks! Alchool will wipe the original markings of most expensive NOS tubes - sometimes in order to distinguish a fake we try it just in a very small part of the label - fake labels are permanent. Tubes are intrinsically robust, those used by Lamm are known to operate without problems in hard conditions!

Decent ventilation in-rack is very important. Lamm front-end components are ~5½ inches tall. I suggest at least that much room above the component in a rack. On my SRA Scuttle racks there is ~10 inches above the component to the bottom of the shelf above. Optimally racks/shelves should be open front and back. It is not unheard for people to use small fans in tight racks when not listening. I will not put amplifiers in racks.

You have a good point, the question is that other components are much more sensitive to temperature than tubes. Electrolytic capacitors are the usual victims of temperature. Most of the true stories about the benefits of keeping equipment permanently on are due to the presence and failure modes of electrolytic capacitors at startup.

Given the variable availability of present day manufactury I suggest having two complete replacement tube sets for each component. Perhaps expensive but worthwhile peace of mind and you'll be thankful when/if a tube is no longer available. Russia cut off tube export when the Ukrainian conflict began. Among others, the popular Svetlana 6550C used in ARC power supplies and other gear remains out-of-stock at most US tube dealers.

I feel comfortable having just one set. We have several brands of tubes that sound excellent in ARC power sections, but audiophiles are known to love unobtainium. Fortunately Vladimir Lamm was clear on it ...
As always IMO, YMMV.

 

[bonzo75]

Most of the true stories about the benefits of keeping equipment permanently on are due to the presence and failure modes of electrolytic capacitors at startup.

Lamm has lytics in the power supply at that price? Would doubt it. I understand some add Black Gates, but usually anything expensive replaces lytics apart from those who prefer the Black Gate variants

 

[PeterA]

Same here. I have never heard from any other manufacturer of tube gear that you should leave it on. Never. Claiming that you should is the weirdest thing. Also, I don't want to set my house on fire.

Yup , Utter nonsense , In theory with 10000 hr 9 pin valves and again in theory large transmitting valves then yes , In practice and practicality simply Not necessary, If one must … fire the system up in the morning then power off when retiring.

This being the prescient point … Leaving 6C33C’s running 24/7 is not necessary and pretty stupid imho!

​

You guys seem to know a lot about tubes. I do not know anything about them. I just enjoy the sound of this gear and am following the direct advice of Vladimir Lamm who designed the gear and of DDK who knew Mr. Lamm extremely well and who sold the gear to me.

I appreciate that you are reading my system thread. What do you think of the essay about my listening impressions of the new phono stage?

 

[Argonaut]

I appreciate that you are reading my system thread. What do you think of the essay about my listening impressions of the new phono stage?

Peter … For my part I very much enjoyed reading your initial impressions of the new Lamm phono electronics, you convey those impressions very well , I tend toward being a proponent of a singular manufacturer system synergy myself , and in that particular, I cannot envisage that you could have chosen a better phono amplifier with which to synergise with the rest of your system . It’s just that I tend not to promote my particular choice quite so pressingly .

 

[PeterA]

Peter … For my part I very much enjoyed reading your initial impressions of your new Lamm phono electronics , I tend toward being a proponent of a singular manufacturer system synergy myself , and in that particular, I cannot envisage that you could have chosen a better phono amplifier with which to synergise with the rest of your system . Its just that I tend not to promote my choice quite so much.

I respect your candor and the interesting comment.

 

[tima]

No need for religious arguments here.

... or ankle biters. Nonetheless posts from @PeterA or myself seem to attract them.

 

[tima]

I have never heard from any other manufacturer of tube gear that you should leave it on. Never. Claiming that you should is the weirdest thing.

You've never heard of it here because no one said you should leave tube gear on? Why comment on something you've never heard?