Natural Sound

[Rensselaer]

Not clear on what you mean by "should be done with the same recording, no?" Can you please clarify?

Read the link I left on 4,646, then re-read what I wrote above.

For those of you who don’t want to read the above; the method of recording is the greatest determinant of how exact the perception of a soundstage will be from any recording during playback. If one wants to evaluate how well one pair of speakers exhibit a soundstage in comparison to a different pair of speakers, then one should use the same recording for both (hopefully one done with a recording technique that exemplifies sound-staging best).

 

[PeterA]

I also think that a system should "breathe" with level, recording allowing. A lot of recordings are sufficiently deficient in this that no system will bring it out in a lifelike manner. Some older jazz albums where a singer or particular instrument is highlighted (like Ella you mentioned) do this rather easily but it is also a clear production choice to push the rest of the band back in the mix. Quite a few Riverside and Blue Note recordings are this way.

The recording that Tim and I keep mentioning of Ella that we heard in Utah is Ella Fitzgerald and Joe Pass, “Take Love Easy“. The two musicians have roughly the same degree of emphasis. Each is very present because there is a sense of very natural imaging in terms of scale, relationship, and mass at least as presented by that system. It is similar but not quite as convincing at my house. The recording is on the Pablo label #2310 702.

 

[hopkins]

Ella Fitzgerald and Joe Pass, “Take it Easy“... The recording is on the Pablo label

"Take Love Easy".

Ella Fitzgerald - Joe Pass - Take Love Easy

Explore songs, recommendations, and other album details for Take Love Easy by Ella Fitzgerald - Joe Pass. Compare different versions and buy them all on Discogs.

www.discogs.com

Was it the stereo or mono version you heard?

 

[morricab]

The recording that Tim and I keep mentioning of Ella that we heard in Utah is Ella Fitzgerald and Joe Pass, “Take it Easy“. The two musicians have roughly the same degree of emphasis. Each is very present because there is a sense of very natural imaging in terms of scale, relationship, and mass at least as presented by that system. It is similar but not quite as convincing at my house. The recording is on the Pablo label

THis is a very good direct to disk with famous guitarist Jim Hall...great presence.

Jim Hall – Jazz Impressions Of Japan (1977, Direct Cutting, Vinyl) - Discogs

 

[morricab]

"Take Love Easy".

Ella Fitzgerald - Joe Pass - Take Love Easy

Explore songs, recommendations, and other album details for Take Love Easy by Ella Fitzgerald - Joe Pass. Compare different versions and buy them all on Discogs.

www.discogs.com

Was it the stereo or mono version you heard ?

That would matter for image perception quite a bit...also if mono, with a mono or stereo cartridge (if analog).

 

[hopkins]

That would matter for image perception quite a bit...also if mono, with a mono or stereo cartridge (if analog).

The stereo version, assuming that is the version available on Qobuz, seems pretty close to mono, but perhaps not true mono.

 

[PeterA]

"Take Love Easy".

Ella Fitzgerald - Joe Pass - Take Love Easy

Explore songs, recommendations, and other album details for Take Love Easy by Ella Fitzgerald - Joe Pass. Compare different versions and buy them all on Discogs.

www.discogs.com

Was it the stereo or mono version you heard?

My copy is stereo. I do not know what David's is, but the perspective is quite similar. I also have ordered the earlier German version but there is no mono/stereo designation that I could find on Discogs.

 

[jeff1225]

Your’s and Peter’s speakers are a bit of a special case in that there mandatory placement impacts a certain aspect of stereo reproduction…in the mono era it didn’t really matter so much.
I bet if you pulled them out into the room they would image fine but bass would probably disappear.

Horns tend to not image as well as panels or box speakers. When you add in the lens that the Hartsfields uses to increase dispersion, the image seems to be nonexistent.

 

[PeterA]

Your’s and Peter’s speakers are a bit of a special case in that there mandatory placement impacts a certain aspect of stereo reproduction…in the mono era it didn’t really matter so much.
I bet if you pulled them out into the room they would image fine but bass would probably disappear.

I do not find that to be the case with my speakers. When I first heard them in David's room, my impression was of tone and dynamics, not so much imaging. In fact, the presentation of images projected forward into the space seemed markedly different from what I was used to from my Magicos at home.

Without asking David, I pulled them out into the room and aimed them straight ahead. (I had to move Tim's JBL M9500s out of the way). Here the imaging did improve slightly, but I do not think it was because they were pulled out of the corners. David's room is problematic and I shared how we tried to improve the sonics with some construction and reinforcement in the corners. What I did notice was the incredibly beautiful tone, the resolution, and the dynamics, though the bass energy was less.

Once installed in my room, the imaging was actually as good or better than with my Magicos, in terms of being more convincing and realistic. That has improved over time with leveling the speakers and fine tuning how they couple with the corners and walls of my room. Despite the fireplace, the imaging is actually very good, that is the presentation reveals a sense that the musicians are present in front of me.

I have not heard the Hartsfields and can not speak to their imaging. David's Bionors, and Tim's M9500, both horns, image extremely well based on my hearing them in David's big room with the Lamm and rest of his system. I suspect his power delivery matters too for this sense of presence and imaging.

 

[hopkins]

My copy is stereo. I do not know what David's is, but the perspective is quite similar. I also have ordered the earlier German version but there is no mono/stereo designation that I could find on Discogs.

View attachment 119616

I do not find that to be the case with my speakers. When I first heard them in David's room, my impression was of tone and dynamics, not so much imaging. In fact, the presentation of images projected forward into the space seemed markedly different from what I was used to from my Magicos at home.

Without asking David, I pulled them out into the room and aimed them straight ahead. (I had to move Tim's JBL M9500s out of the way). Here the imaging did improve slightly, but I do not think it was because they were pulled out of the corners. David's room is problematic and I shared how we tried to improve the sonics with some construction and reinforcement in the corners. What I did notice was the incredibly beautiful tone, the resolution, and the dynamics, though the bass energy was less.

Once installed in my room, the imaging was actually as good or better than with my Magicos, in terms of being more convincing and realistic. That has improved over time with leveling the speakers and fine tuning how they couple with the corners and walls of my room. Despite the fireplace, the imaging is actually very good, that is the presentation reveals a sense that the musicians are present in front of me.

I have not heard the Hartsfields and can not speak to their imaging. David's Bionors, and Tim's M9500, both horns, image extremely well based on my hearing them in David's big room with the Lamm and rest of his system. I suspect his power delivery matters too for this sense of presence and imaging.

The room acoustics also play an important role. In one of your videos I saw you have boards up around your chimney, facing your listening position,I presume. Instead of boards, you should try diffusers. You may get a nice surprise.

 

[PeterA]

The room acoustics also play an important role. In one of your videos I saw you have boards up around your chimney, facing your listening position,I presume. Instead of boards, you should try diffusers. You may get a nice surprise.

Thanks. I tried that. They were big panels from Acoustic Revive. The planks are a work in progress. They help a lot. It is going to be an inconvenient construction project for the room, but maybe this winter.

 

[R Johnson]

Wow, what a coincidence. Rockford had its own symphony back then as I recall. I was there in the 60s and 70s. It was a wonderful place to grow up.

The Rockford Symphony is still in business!

Rockford Symphony Orchestra

Located in Rockford, IL, the mission of the Rockford Symphony Orchestra is to lead in the creation of vibrant music experiences that enlighten, educate, and entertain.

www.rockfordsymphony.com

I heard them a time or two in the 80s(?) at the Coronado Theater - now the Coronado Performing Arts Center.

However by that time I had been thoroughly spoiled by listening to the Chicago Symphony, so ....

 

[hopkins]

This video explains well, IMO, how stereo and mono provide different listening experiences akin to font row vs back row seating:

 

[jeff1225]

I do not find that to be the case with my speakers. When I first heard them in David's room, my impression was of tone and dynamics, not so much imaging. In fact, the presentation of images projected forward into the space seemed markedly different from what I was used to from my Magicos at home.

Without asking David, I pulled them out into the room and aimed them straight ahead. (I had to move Tim's JBL M9500s out of the way). Here the imaging did improve slightly, but I do not think it was because they were pulled out of the corners. David's room is problematic and I shared how we tried to improve the sonics with some construction and reinforcement in the corners. What I did notice was the incredibly beautiful tone, the resolution, and the dynamics, though the bass energy was less.

Once installed in my room, the imaging was actually as good or better than with my Magicos, in terms of being more convincing and realistic. That has improved over time with leveling the speakers and fine tuning how they couple with the corners and walls of my room. Despite the fireplace, the imaging is actually very good, that is the presentation reveals a sense that the musicians are present in front of me.

I have not heard the Hartsfields and can not speak to their imaging. David's Bionors, and Tim's M9500, both horns, image extremely well based on my hearing them in David's big room with the Lamm and rest of his system. I suspect his power delivery matters too for this sense of presence and imaging.

Your system done not image like a traditional hifi system. You might like the “presentation” but it’s not “imaging.” It’s way forward in your face, where audiophile systems image in the center and behind the speakers.

With vintage corner horns, you need to walk away from thinking you’ll ever get traditional audiophile imaging.

 

[bonzo75]

It’s way forward in your face, where audiophile systems image in the center and behind the speakers.

i did not think the imaging/lack of discussion was referring to forcing a forward stage where the recording might be mid hall or back.

 

[PeterA]

Your system done not image like a traditional hifi system. You might like the “presentation” but it’s not “imaging.” It’s way forward in your face, where audiophile systems image in the center and behind the speakers.

With vintage corner horns, you need to walk away from thinking you’ll ever get traditional audiophile imaging.

Jeff, I invite you on your next trip to the East Coast to come and hear the system. Then you will know whether what you just wrote has anything to do with what you hear.

My old system presented images that were located between and behind their location. That meant right around the front plane of the fireplace because those speakers were pretty far out onto the room.

The corner horns are all the way back at the front corners of the room and they project images forward to about the plane of the fireplace, but they also present more depth so some images are behind the front wall really deep and far from the listener. It is actually pretty similar to the sound staging presentation of the Bionors in Utah. Just not quite as large and grand given the much smaller room. The images are anything but way forward “in your face”. It is just not like that.

You are right that they project images forward from the front corners of my room rather than behind like other speakers, but the end result is actually pretty similar to what both Magicos were doing in my room.

 

[gian60]

The recording that Tim and I keep mentioning of Ella that we heard in Utah is Ella Fitzgerald and Joe Pass, “Take Love Easy“. The two musicians have roughly the same degree of emphasis. Each is very present because there is a sense of very natural imaging in terms of scale, relationship, and mass at least as presented by that system. It is similar but not quite as convincing at my house. The recording is on the Pablo label #2310 702.

I always use Take it Easy,45 rpm Analog production, old Limited Editions very impressive in dynamic ,natural

 

[jeff1225]

Jeff, I invite you on your next trip to the East Coast to come and hear the system. Then you will know whether what you just wrote has anything to do with what you hear.

My old system presented images that were located between and behind their location. That meant right around the front plane of the fireplace because those speakers were pretty far out onto the room.

The corner horns are all the way back at the front corners of the room and they project images forward to about the plane of the fireplace, but they also present more depth so some images are behind the front wall really deep and far from the listener. It is actually pretty similar to the sound staging presentation of the Bionors in Utah. Just not quite as large and grand given the much smaller room. The images are anything but way forward “in your face”. It is just not like that.

You’ve described the system correctly, the sound presents well forward of the speakers and not behind the speakers like traditional audiophile speakers. This is the typical presentation of all corner horns.

 

[Tangram]

The room acoustics also play an important role. In one of your videos I saw you have boards up around your chimney, facing your listening position,I presume. Instead of boards, you should try diffusers. You may get a nice surprise.

Agreed. Almost without question, my observation is that for a typical WBF member it’s the room, not the gear or the software, which limit what we are ultimately able to critique. A short room description (like some Stereophile reviewers provide) accompanying the gear list in member signature blocks would be helpful.

 

[PeterA]

Here is a photograph of my room. It is 15‘ x 16‘ x 7 1/2‘. The furniture has been rearranged and the system is completely different but this gives a sense of dimension and scale and window location.