Natural Sound

[morricab]

By 'the recording itself' are you talking about a particular Youtube video?

Yes, the two non-live ones posted by Argonaut, which are file uploads of the recording. They sound quite similar to each other, as would be expected as they are not played through a system. The live one I totally discount...it's interesting in it's own right but not relevant to the comparison.

Fully cognizant of the fact that these are compressed to be on YouTube, nonetheless, I have heard this recording in many, many systems and in the best ones it sounded more like what I heard on the YouTube files. You don't have to agree with me but that is my analysis.

 

[morricab]

I wonder if the two system video presentations reveal more about the character of the system or the differences between the recordings. I agree that the records themselves sound quite different. I’d rather the system convey the differences between the recordings than make the recordings sound more the same.

A recording captures a moment in time, and it depends on the decisions of the recording engineer, and those involved in producing the recording. I don’t know the value of comparing an original studio recording decades old to a live recording and to a remastered recording. They will all certainly sound different.

Every system editorializes to some extent. And we choose our systems and how to set them up using our own criteria. Three different recordings of the same song are also editorialized.

When gaging progress with system tuning, I generally judge the results based on my notion of what sounds most natural, referencing my memory of live music. In this particular case, previous presentations of this record were not as convincing or as enjoyable with less of rhythmic drive of the beat of the song. The drums were less well defined and harder sounding. The sounds are made from the drummers soft hands, not wooden sticks, and the voice was flatter sounding without the extended sibilance on uncertain words.

I appreciate your comments, Brad. Thank you for sharing them. I will reflect on your comments about comparing different recordings to each other and what that might say about the system. I tend to compare the sound of one recording to itself before and after changes to the system set up rather than comparing two different recordings to each other. But I also do notice that different recordings sound more different from each other than they did before.

It's not about comparing the Peggy Lee to the classical piece, they are clearly different recordings and will sound quite different as a result. Having never heard the classical piece before, it would be interesting to hear a digital rip of it through headphones for a comparison to your video upload.

Comparing your YouTube system video playing Fever vs. the file uploads (not the live one) on YouTube reveals the differences I noted.

 

[PeterA]

Three years ago, the members listening to system videos did not immediately post official YouTube videos as the reference against which to judge system videos. It is different now. At some point, the streaming version became the reference, remastered or otherwise. A friend pointed that out to me when we were discussing the thread about what is wrong with HiFi. His response was inefficient speakers demanding increasingly more powerful amps, and the proliferation of streaming as the new format standard, even used as the reference.

There was an interesting earlier discussion of this Peggy Lee's "Fever" recording in the video recording thread, post #429. There were other videos of the same recording but they have since disappeared. Here is a link:

What do you think of this video

What do you think of this video. And this is not directed to those who think every mobile phone video is trash, thanks. Please listen to the end for the brass and the woodwinds

www.whatsbestforum.com

Here, an earlier iteration of my system sounded different, with a different turntable, cartridge, phono, and preamp. I suspect putting the vDH Colibri back on would be an interesting comparison. It has more resolution but less mass to its presentation.

 

[PeterA]

It's not about comparing the Peggy Lee to the classical piece, they are clearly different recordings and will sound quite different as a result. Having never heard the classical piece before, it would be interesting to hear a digital rip of it through headphones for a comparison to your video upload.

Brad, here is Hopkin's system video with a digital source of the piano/clarinet recording, though not a digital rip through headphones for comparison to my video upload.

 

[Rexp]

Yes, the two non-live ones posted by Argonaut, which are file uploads of the recording. They sound quite similar to each other, as would be expected as they are not played through a system. The live one I totally discount...it's interesting in it's own right but not relevant to the comparison.

Fully cognizant of the fact that these are compressed to be on YouTube, nonetheless, I have heard this recording in many, many systems and in the best ones it sounded more like what I heard on the YouTube files. You don't have to agree with me but that is my analysis.

I find Peter's video sounds best of the lot and more similar to what I've heard the track sound like in the past. The youtube file versions are typically dead sounding and don't merit listening to again.

 

[morricab]

Brad, here is Hopkin's system video with a digital source of the piano/clarinet recording, though not a digital rip through headphones for comparison to my video upload.

Is it the same recording of the same performers? If not, then it is not a relevant recording.

 

[morricab]

Three years ago, the members listening to system videos did not immediately post official YouTube videos as the reference against which to judge system videos. It is different now. At some point, the streaming version became the reference, remastered or otherwise. A friend pointed that out to me when we were discussing the thread about what is wrong with HiFi. His response was inefficient speakers demanding increasingly more powerful amps, and the proliferation of streaming as the new format standard, even used as the reference.

There was an interesting earlier discussion of this Peggy Lee's "Fever" recording in the video recording thread, post #429. There were other videos of the same recording but they have since disappeared. Here is a link:

What do you think of this video

What do you think of this video. And this is not directed to those who think every mobile phone video is trash, thanks. Please listen to the end for the brass and the woodwinds

www.whatsbestforum.com

Here, an earlier iteration of my system sounded different, with a different turntable, cartridge, phono, and preamp. I suspect putting the vDH Colibri back on would be an interesting comparison. It has more resolution but less mass to its presentation.

This one sounds closer to what i would expect from hearing the files.

 

[hopkins]

Brad, here is Hopkin's system video with a digital source of the piano/clarinet recording, though not a digital rip through headphones for comparison to my video upload.

As noted in my thread, the systems have absolutely nothing in common! The only comment I offered were differences in recording quality (weirdly, your video seems to have some background hiss) and room reverb (I find your room to be more resonant than mine - which is not a value judgement - the speakers being very different as well).

 

[Rexp]

This one sounds closer to what i would expect from hearing the files.

So to clarify you think the YouTube files sound best?

 

[PeterA]

Is it the same recording of the same performers? If not, then it is not a relevant recording.

You would have to ask hopkins, but I assume so. Here is what he wrote on his own system thread:

"I listened to @PeterA 's nice video below and was curious to see how this track sounded on my system - not in a "competitive" spirit, but just out of curiosity. The systems don't have anything in common (high-end vinyl rig, tube amplifiers, large vintage speakers vs digital source, poweramp, budget speakers). I enjoyed listening to the track."

Taking it further, are the YouTube digital recordings, one marked "re-mastered", the same recordings as an analog recording made decades ago? I suppose they start out as the same base recording, but they have all been "editorialized" to some extent before we hear them through streaming/headphones/systems and compare.

I know that when I carry my original LP from system to system to hear different presentations, I am using the same recording.

 

[morricab]

So to clarify you think the YouTube files sound best?

Best? Who said anything about best? They are close to a high rez file of this recording or that piece of vinyl I bet than what was heard through Peter's system. Listen to his older recording, much less soft and fuzzy.

 

[morricab]

As noted in my thread, the systems have absolutely nothing in common! The only comment I offered were differences in recording quality (weirdly, your video seems to have some background hiss) and room reverb (I find your room to be more resonant than mine - which is not a value judgement - the speakers being very different as well).

Is it the SAME recording though?

 

[morricab]

You would have to ask hopkins, but I assume so. Here is what he wrote on his own system thread:

"I listened to @PeterA 's nice video below and was curious to see how this track sounded on my system - not in a "competitive" spirit, but just out of curiosity. The systems don't have anything in common (high-end vinyl rig, tube amplifiers, large vintage speakers vs digital source, poweramp, budget speakers). I enjoyed listening to the track."

Taking it further, are the YouTube digital recordings, one marked "re-mastered", the same recordings as an analog recording made decades ago? I suppose they start out as the same base recording, but they have all been "editorialized" to some extent before we hear them through streaming/headphones/systems and compare.

I know that when I carry my original LP from system to system to hear different presentations, I am using the same recording.

Ah ok, missed this post.

 

[PeterA]

This one sounds closer to what i would expect from hearing the files.

I agree. It seems you use digital files as the benchmark, while I use my memory of live music. Now, I understand that I never heard Peggy Lee perform live, and I also understand that you listened daily to your ex playing live violin for you.

I guess my question Brad, is what should we be using to judge system changes. Do you stream a YT video for comparison when adjusting speaker position or the VTA of your cartridge, or do you listen and rely on your memory of the way your ex sounded playing her violin?

 

[hopkins]

Ah ok, missed this post.

Yes, it is the same recording. I put the link to the Qobuz track in my thread. Same album art, same label. What is the quality of the digital version vs the vinyl version, that's anyone's guess (setting aside general opinions concerning digital vs analog).

The LP was originally released in 1976, the CD in 1995.

https://www.discogs.com/release/2288788-Various-Kjell-Inge-Stevensson-Eva-Knardahl-Kjell-Fag%C3%A9us-Mats-Persson-The-Virtuoso-Clarinet

 

[Ron Resnick]

official YouTube videos as the reference against which to judge system videos.

At some point, the streaming version became the reference, remastered or otherwise.

I think that comparison to official YouTube videos takes the video madness to a new height.

 

[hopkins]

I think that comparison to official YouTube videos takes the video madness to a new height.

To put things into perspective, the comparison of the same "digital" version between a CD, Qobuz, and YouTube, on a desktop computer with a pair of headphones is probably not going to result in vastly different sound. Wouldn't you agree?

The Peggy Lee track probably has many different digital versions, which introduces more "unknowns".

The comparison of analog versions vs digital versions, even when issued by the same label, can be less meaningful. As @morricab mentioned, a vinyl rip could give some indication of the differences.

I think all this has been covered before, and we all agree that digital and vinyl can sound different...

 

[Rexp]

I find youtube 'official' videos rarely offer a reference point (for youtube comparisons) as they are derived from the record labels lossless files which also rarely sound good.

 

[Argonaut]

‘I think that comparison to official YouTube videos takes the video madness to a new height.

Might you elaborate further ? Does such a comparison not show how close , or otherwise , a physical system , recorded ‘in room’ , is as compared to a ‘clean’ source recording , unencumbered by an audio equipment chain and room environment ? Both methodologies are subject to the same limitations that YouTube brings to the listening comparison.

 

[Ron Resnick]

To put things into perspective, the comparison of the same "digital" version between a CD, Qobuz, and YouTube, on a desktop computer with a pair of headphones is probably not going to result in vastly different sound. Wouldn't you agree?

I haven't done these comparisons.

Without knowing I assume that the extent of the sonic superiority of CD and Qobuz on our big stereos versus YouTube is greatly diminished via desktop computer and headphones.

But this is a different point. I agree with what I believe is Peter's view that it doesn't make any sense to compare in-the-room video recordings to the official YouTube recording of a track.