Natural Sound

[Blue58]

Sorry if I misinterpreted some of your comments.

Concerning this last point, it is difficult with this Peggy Lee track. I found two very different versions on Qobuz:

Listen to Fever by Peggy Lee on Qobuz https://open.qobuz.com/track/3561689

Listen to Fever by Peggy Lee on Qobuz https://open.qobuz.com/track/1056575

The first is a stereo version with a wide sound. The second is a mono version. On my speakers, I prefer listening to the mono version. With the stereo version I get a muddier sound (this is due to issues with my system). Her voice is a little softer (drier, less reverb) on the stereo version, but it's also presented further away. There are pros and cons to each.

How can I compare either to "live music"? This is difficult, especially with this track. In both cases I hear "artefacts" in the recording which don't seem to be very natural to me.

Ask the same question about a system video and I'll give you the same answer as before - they are a pale copy of what we hear in our rooms, so the comparison to live music is even more tenuous. Go to a concert, record it with your phone, and listen to it after...

How about you?

I prefer the stereo with the reduced reverb.
Here’s some reading. Skip down to part 21.https://peggyleediscography.com/p/LeeResearchFever.php

 

[hopkins]

I agree. We can all find more realistic sounding vocal tracks in our collections or in the ether. I chose it simply because I like the music and I recorded this track when I visited David Karmeli the first time and that recording became for me a kind of benchmark system video of how this track could sound over a stereo system recorded on a phone. It is fun music, and I happen to prefer it to some of the other popular pop female vocal tracks that people use for such system videos. I also like Dusty in Memphis singing “Windmills of your Mind” for processed female pop music.

Totally understand. I have similar tracks that I have heard in others' systems and listened to in mine over the years. Whatever you enjoy playing is fine. Maybe Peggy Lee's voice simply got a bit tiresome after listening to the track 20 times...That "Windmills" song has more intimate vocals.

 

[hopkins]

I prefer the stereo with the reduced reverb.
Here’s some reading. Skip down to part 21.https://peggyleediscography.com/p/LeeResearchFever.php

Very thorough write-up, thanks.

 

[PeterA]

I prefer the stereo with the reduced reverb.
Here’s some reading. Skip down to part 21.https://peggyleediscography.com/p/LeeResearchFever.php

Interesting article. Thank you. It appears my LP is “duophonic” (part XXII) It is “Peggy Lee’s Greatest!” from 1969.

 

[CorDn]

Hello Peter, Since yesterday I am new on this forum.
I have read your story / Musicaltrip, what a beautiful trip you have made! So nice to read and I can also learn from your story. No cost or time saving at all! I will follow your story, but first I have to read 300 pages. Thanks for sharing!

 

[hopkins]

By the way, finger snapping is interesting - it seems so simple, but yet so difficult to get to sound "right".

Ellington was famous for his "finger snapping". He had a routine about it where he explained that it was "cool" to snap off-beat:

He included it in some studio recordings. In this track you can hear what I find to be a pretty "natural sounding" finger snap on the left channel, heard most clearly at the beginning and end of the song:

You can compare it to the finger snapping on the Peggy Lee track.

 

[Rexp]

I’m glad you are enjoying the thread. I listen more to the vintage Ortofon because it just sounds more convincing to me, though I do appreciate the resolution of the Colibri. Lately I’ve been listening to choral music with the Colibri and some large scale, classical music. Jazz and small scale, classical and rock gets the Ortofon. And sometimes I just listen to one or the other for the whole evening on a variety of music.

I found the clarinet piece to be more convincing on the Colibri and Fever more convincing on the Ortofon. The difference between the two carts is surprisingly well captured by your iphone. (I'm more a fan of Samsung Ultra recordings). I wonder if YouTube deniers like @Ron Resnick gleaned any value from your comparison.

 

[morricab]

Listening with my phone with Etymotyc in-ear headphones (er4sr) and a small bluetooth external dac/amp (Qudelix)... If you listen to the videos using your phone's small build in speakers, your impressions may be very different!

The volume level seems to be lower on the Ortofon video. I find the sound to be a little softer. The sound is too aggressive in the second video.

In terms of comparison with the digital track, we lose resolution with an iphone recording, that's normal. The track is "bass intensive" and the bass in Peter's system is not as full - could be partly due to the iphone recording. Also, with headphones you can get really clean bass, something that is really challenging to do with speakers in a room...

As for the voice, I can't compare because there is too much reverb in Peter's video, so you lose a lot of focus and intimacy. This may not be how the sound is perceived in the room, I don't know.

These comparisons are rarely in favor of system videos, but they are still informative, and can trigger questions.

I never judge these videos with the built in phone speaker…I thought I made that abundantly clear.

I think it is also pretty clear that you will never have a system video that sounds like a music file…there is simply too much room imprint for that. But you can also start to separate what is room and system when things are changed…like Peter’s cartridge. It told me that a lot of the softness was not the room or even the speakers or electronics…it had a lot to do with that cartridge.

 

[morricab]

Do you have a particular current model to suggest?

The last ZYX I heard was quite awhile ago and no longer current. The Top Wing Red Sparrow is the one I think.

 

[morricab]

I agree with your comments regarding resolution and leading edge. But for all the things they do less well I love the weight and force that many of the Ortofon Spu / SL15 style cartridges have. In particular the way they convey force and weight all through the frequency range they represent. It reminds me (and seems to be a great synergy with) of what are some of the things I love best about a really good (and well implemented) horn system.

It's something i've noticed many more conventional "high end" systems often struggle with as often the focus will be on ever more detail and a more pinpoint soundstage. Perfect for a recording booth monitor but not something that i personally want as main focus in any of my systems. I've found it's a real balancing act between more resolution and maintaining weight and force in the sound. The Shindo SPU which I love seems to do a pretty good job of having a fair portion of both (but not quite the greatest resolution or weight of both of these camps as much as I think its a fabulous cart).

I'm not criticising any other approach and think they are all valid. We are all on our own journey finding what we like and what moves us.

I'm loving your thread Peter and am thankful that you are happy to share your journey with us. I very much look forward to each of your posts and they remind me in some ways of what I used to love when reading the really extensive essays of Harry Pearson and the early TAS which I read when I was a kid. He was so good in his best writings of being able to really help me imagine the type of sound he was getting and the emotional impact of the music. Something sadly lacking in most audio reviews these days.

LPG

I am not a hyper resolution fanatic by any means but for me the Ortofon, as heard through Peter’s system, is simply lacking too much and I think some of that sensation of weight and force is due to a refocused perception as the top end is lacking.

 

[hopkins]

I never judge these videos with the built in phone speaker…I thought I made that abundantly clear.

Noted, but I was not referring specifically to you.

 

[morricab]

As with your previous comments, Brad, I appreciate and respect your perspective. There have always been criticisms about my videos being overly characterized by room sound. It is clear from the contrast between the cartridges that there’s more going on.

I have two tone arms for a reason. I generally have an Ortofon on one and a Colibri on the other. I prefer the mass from the Ortofon presentation but it gives up a little bit in terms of resolution. The Colibrí has more resolution, but sounds thin in the room. The iPhone recording adds weight do the presentation through YouTube.

I listen to the vintage cartridge about 60% of the time and the Colibri the remaining 40%. I enjoy both and have three versions of each. This latest series of video pairings demonstrates the differences. I’m glad I have choices. I might get two more tone arms with two more cartridges someday but I’m quite happy with what I’ve got.

Whether one presentation is more like some official YouTube video does not matter to me at all. The YouTube official video is not the standard nor is it my reference.

Interesting, so you are finding a phone recording and YT are adding weight compared. to what you hear in room. I am not sure I get the same experience…have to go back and check on this.

 

[morricab]

Noted, but I was not referring specifically to you.

But you were responding to me…please be more precise when you write as it minimized misunderstanding.

 

[hopkins]

Since we are talking about natural sound, here's a track that I listened to this afternoon which I really enjoyed.

I'm not claiming it has the best recording quality ever, but...

All the instruments in the band take brief solos, so you can appreciate how each is "individualized". There's very good clarity in the recording. The instruments are spread out nicely in the soundstage. There's good resolution.

It sounds "natural" to my ears. The instruments sound "credible", they are in the ball-park of my expectations... Does it sound "live"? It sounds like a good studio recording, and it sounds pleasant to my years, that's for sure. Do the instruments have that last bit of "crispiness" that the best recordings have? Maybe not, up to you to find out. As a bonus, it has an all-star cast of musicians, and you can even dance to it if you want.


Here is the file, in case anyone is interested in listening to it on their system: https://storage.googleapis.com/cloudplayer/samples/05 Route 66.flac

Listen to Route 66 by Rosemary Clooney on Qobuz https://open.qobuz.com/track/3958011

Do You Miss New York? - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Lagonda]

As with your previous comments, Brad, I appreciate and respect your perspective. There have always been criticisms about my videos being overly characterized by room sound. It is clear from the contrast between the cartridges that there’s more going on.

I have two tone arms for a reason. I generally have an Ortofon on one and a Colibri on the other. I prefer the mass from the Ortofon presentation but it gives up a little bit in terms of resolution. The Colibrí has more resolution, but sounds thin in the room. The iPhone recording adds weight do the presentation through YouTube.

I listen to the vintage cartridge about 60% of the time and the Colibri the remaining 40%. I enjoy both and have three versions of each. This latest series of video pairings demonstrates the differences. I’m glad I have choices. I might get two more tone arms with two more cartridges someday but I’m quite happy with what I’ve got.

Whether one presentation is more like some official YouTube video does not matter to me at all. The YouTube official video is not the standard nor is it my reference.

Have you experimented with loading down the Grand Cru ? I get big differences in bass mass and response depending on loading. The tipping point between loss of bass and loss of treble energy is very narrow. As is VTF

 

[PeterA]

By the way, finger snapping is interesting - it seems so simple, but yet so difficult to get to sound "right".

Ellington was famous for his "finger snapping". He had a routine about it where he explained that it was "cool" to snap off-beat:

He included it in some studio recordings. In this track you can hear what I find to be a pretty "natural sounding" finger snap on the left channel, heard most clearly at the beginning and end of the song:

You can compare it to the finger snapping on the Peggy Lee track.

And you can also snap your fingers to a beat and listen to the sound.

 

[PeterA]

I found the clarinet piece to be more convincing on the Colibri and Fever more convincing on the Ortofon. The difference between the two carts is surprisingly well captured by your iphone. (I'm more a fan of Samsung Ultra recordings). I wonder if YouTube deniers like @Ron Resnick gleaned any value from your comparison.

That is interesting, Rex. I like both cartridges on the clarinet/piano but for different reasons, and depending on if listening to the system or to the video. On "Fever", I prefer the Ortofon when listening to the actual system, but over video, I like them both, preferring the Ortofon bass but Colibri vocals.

I suspect members who do not value system videos on YouTube have moved on and are not paying any attention to this thread. I appreciate that because we are spending less time arguing about the merits of system videos. There is little more to say on the topic, and the sides are entrenched.

I am enjoying reading the comments from those who have played the videos and shared their varied impressions with the rest of us.

 

[PeterA]

I never judge these videos with the built in phone speaker…I thought I made that abundantly clear.

I think it is also pretty clear that you will never have a system video that sounds like a music file…there is simply too much room imprint for that. But you can also start to separate what is room and system when things are changed…like Peter’s cartridge. It told me that a lot of the softness was not the room or even the speakers or electronics…it had a lot to do with that cartridge.

Brad, that is why I took the time to install the Colibri and make the new videos. People were assuming too much about cause and effect. I knew the Colibri would get the sound closer to the official YT file but wanted to demonstrate it.

I do not listen to the videos over my phone either. I think most of us who value these videos listen over a soundbar/computer, or headphones, and perhaps a few over their main systems, but not likely as that would add even more room influence.

 

[PeterA]

Interesting, so you are finding a phone recording and YT are adding weight compared. to what you hear in room. I am not sure I get the same experience…have to go back and check on this.

Yes. I say that because in the room, the Colibri sounds thin but very resolving. The Ortofon is more balanced in the room and does not lack high frequency extension. It does add mass/weight body. On video, both over my computer and my headphones, the balance shifts a bit to where the Ortofon is heavier sounding, and the Colibri is more balanced. I do not know if that is the phone, the YT manipulation, or the computer speakers or headphones.

The Ortofon over a variety of music just sounds more natural to me in the room. The Colibri is a tad thin and lacks the mass. Over the system video, the balance improves for the Colibri in the bass, but the highs get a bit bright. The differences between the in-room system sound and the system video sound is still fairly representative, certainly close enough to share and discuss difference with remote listeners to demonstrate broadly what the cartridges are doing to change the overall sound of the system. It does come across over video as the listener comments show.

 

[PeterA]

Have you experimented with loading down the Grand Cru ? I get big differences in bass mass and response depending on loading. The tipping point between loss of bass and loss of treble energy is very narrow. As is VTF

My Lamm LP1 phone does not allow for loading differences. I do have two MC inputs with different outputs and should experiment. Yes, the VTA does make a difference. I have an older Colibri, the XPP, which I should also put back in service. I have heard the Colibris in DDK system, and compared to the Ortofon and Neumann, they just have less of this "mass", but they excel in resolution.