Natural Sound
- Thread starter PeterA
- Start date
No politics. Your hair trigger would certainly be pulled, and the report button quickly buzzed. That’s all fine and I get that which is why I’m not sharing Romy’s nickname here. Cat is just a furry little animal.
Yes, because this is a classy, family-oriented, non-misogynistic website!Or naked girls !
Yes, exactly. Whatever happens as a result of a component or system's use is a result of the user's response. Here I'm thinking largely of pyscho-acoustic phenomena.
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I thought many felt a horn is more detailed and transparent. Relaxed is difficult to define with stereo.
I think the raison d'être of horns was the existing low power amplifiers and the need to fill the space of large movie theaters with convincing sound.
The best horns do many things well beyond just dynamics and jump factor. They can present a very natural listening experience.
If you talk about speakers you need to talk about amps.
The amps in theatres were Altec Lansing 1570B with 811 tubes in push pull. 130 watts or so.
I am not commenting on the sensitivity of the speakers. I had one of those amps. Tom Tutay rebuilt it. I was of the understanding that they came from movie theaters and ran the Altec Lansing speaker. You do have 2 x 12 inch drivers in the bass cabinet. And you're pressurizing a theatre. Not someones listening room.
Rex, you might not be commenting on the sensitivity of speakers, but I was responding to Ron’s comment about the reason horns exist. It has very much to do with their sensitivity. The issue we were discussing was the reason for horn speakers. As I understand it, they were the solution to a problem that included the type of amplification available at the time. The horn allowed for passive amplification and projection requirements into large spaces with convincing sound.
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I am not disagreeing Peter. I am only saying, the horns that were in theatres, from what I understand were driven by matching amps by Altec Lansing. Those amps were many times a 1570B. A PP amp.
In the day when these speakers were used in a movie theatre, how many speakers were there????2???
In a moderns movie theatre, there are speakers all around the room. There are thousands of watts of amps. And some sort of mixing board or control system. 130 watts in not much power. Especially when you consider the room is how big? Were talking a room with maybe 350 seats more of less. Not you living room.
In the day when these speakers were used in a movie theatre, how many speakers were there????2???
In a moderns movie theatre, there are speakers all around the room. There are thousands of watts of amps. And some sort of mixing board or control system. 130 watts in not much power. Especially when you consider the room is how big? Were talking a room with maybe 350 seats more of less. Not you living room.
'Relaxed' is a lack of higher ordered harmonic distortion (IOW its inaudible) and also a lack of weird room problems (like slap echo) or breakups in the loudspeaker, lack of early reflections caused by side walls and so on. IOW, does not sound 'loud' even if playing +95dB.
Historically horns were the thing because even in the age of tubes, tube amplifier power was expensive. So you had to make the most of it you could.
FWIW before Altec made amplifiers theaters were powered by Western Electric amps, some of which were SETs (211s if memory serves). The horns WE made for that application are something to behold and looking like they had something in common with a Klein bottle.
The main advantage of horns, as I understand it, is high sensitivity, as the compression drivers couple well to the surrounding air, and what this means is that for a same SPL, there is less membrane movement and less distortion/higher resolution.
Today, SETs are just one among many other options. I would love, for example, to listen to my poweramp with horns - I would bet the low distortion of the pair would be pretty amazing - but that will be probably for another lifetime.
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Yes, if the driver is hardly moving its a lot harder for it to distort. Diaphragms can break up despite that, causing distortion. That's the one thing that can be obnoxious on a horn midrange. In the old days this was common (the aluminum diaphragm of the Altec horns has this problem at higher levels). My horns use a beryllium diaphragm which has its first break up at about 35KHz, so its pretty smooth.
But in a home situation the side walls are a constant menace to smooth sound. Early reflections like you get with side walls are interpreted by the ear as harshness. Horns have a controlled directivity so can be used to minimize side wall reflections, resulting in smoother sound.
What constitutes a horn? What about the Aries Cerat speaker. That looks to be a 6 or 8 inch driver in a transmission line. Is that a horn.
What about the Altec with the 1 to 2 x 12 inch drivers in a folded cabinet.
What about a single 12 in a ported box with a multicell on top?
What about a 12" open baffle driver set behind a 3" thick slab with a flared face?
How much material has to be in front of the driver to be considered a horn. And when does the port become a horn. As in the transmission line speaker. The large flared port appears to be a horn. But the sound is very directional from the cone driver in the face of the speaker. So is that a horn, or a speaker with a long port to extend the bass frequency.
What about the Altec with the 1 to 2 x 12 inch drivers in a folded cabinet.
What about a single 12 in a ported box with a multicell on top?
What about a 12" open baffle driver set behind a 3" thick slab with a flared face?
How much material has to be in front of the driver to be considered a horn. And when does the port become a horn. As in the transmission line speaker. The large flared port appears to be a horn. But the sound is very directional from the cone driver in the face of the speaker. So is that a horn, or a speaker with a long port to extend the bass frequency.
Some of the Aries Cerats are horns although to be clear, a waveguide is considered a horn.
Folded horns are still horns. They tend to make more distortion since the horn taper should be on a curve.
A ported box isn't a horn but the multicell is. My Classic Audio Louspeakers are ported boxes with horn mids and highs.
If the flare is correct, its a horn. The horn is what loads the driver so it might not be so important what's on the backside. I've not studied that in any depth so the prior sentence should be taken with a grain of salt.
Al, Romy just released a new video which continues his previous discussion about the three approaches. In this new video, he begins to address the distinction between subjective and objective.
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