Natural Sound

[bonzo75]

I'm one of those DIY horn guys. It's true, the tweaking never ends. That's the point of DIY. Sometimes I don't know what to do because I can't decide if anything is even wrong. When I'm stuck I just stop and listen, for months if that's what it takes, and wait for a perception to develop that is persistent across everything I listen to. Then I try to go after that - assuming I don't like it.

My opinion is that DIY is just a sliding scale. As far away as you could get would be to have someone design your room and choose every piece of equipment for you.

That is no different from commercial audio. Tweakers tweak.

To clarify, by DIY I mean custom built by small unknown manufacturer works as well, not necessarily the DIY journey of doing it yourself without expertise. These are two completely different things.

JC Morrison told me in 2019 at Munich. He sells to billionaires. If one wants a remote chance of getting close to the Western electrics they buy, go DIY. That gang is a big fan of altecs and Thomas on this forum bought an A7 based on Chung's recommendation

 

[PeterA]

(Emphases added.)

Peter,

first, in the context of your post you seem to conflate what David calls "Natural Sound" with in general sound that is natural.

Second, and that follows from the first point, you seem to imply that all the systems of your local Boston audio friends do not sound natural.

Or do I misread this?

Al

Hi Al,

Perhaps I am conflating "Natural Sound" with systems that sound natural. David's systems all sound natural, and other systems can sound natural too. I am speaking from my perspective only and describing systems that I have actually heard. You and I may disagree about the sound of a particular system and how it is described. We certainly have our personal preferences, though we share the same reference of live acoustic music.

The sound of David's four systems were similar and they all shared a list of characteristics. Some have claimed those characteristics are general and vague and can be applied to all or most systems. I disagree.

Rather than implying anything, I will state it again clearly: Those four systems sounded radically different from not only the fairly familiar systems belonging to my Boston audio buddies, but also from most all of the systems I have heard at dealerships and audio shows over the years. Not all, but the vast majority.

Now, David has three systems.

 

[Kingrex]

I do have a friend who got a hold of the schematics for the Altec Live sound design speakers. He had a professional wood shop build them. The mid/high horn is from Chela Audio. Those speakers sound great. But it was an engineered design that was reproduced. I see that as different than someone starting from scratch.

 

[bonzo75]

I do have a friend who got a hold of the schematics for the Altec Live sound design speakers. He had a professional wood shop build them. The mid/high horn is from Chela Audio. Those speakers sound great. But it was an engineered design that was reproduced. I see that as different than someone starting from scratch.

Sorry DIY is not necessarily starting from scratch. You can borrow somebody's existing successful model and put it together

 

[bonzo75]

Hi Al,

Perhaps I am conflating "Natural Sound" with systems that sound natural. David's systems all sound natural, and other systems can sound natural too. I am speaking from my perspective only and describing systems that I have actually heard. You and I may disagree about the sound of a particular system and how it is described. We certainly have our personal preferences, though we share the same reference of live acoustic music.

The sound of David's four systems were similar and they all shared a list of characteristics. Some have claimed those characteristics are general and vague and can be applied to all or most systems. I disagree.

Rather than implying anything, I will state it again clearly: Those four systems sounded radically different from not only the fairly familiar systems belonging to my Boston audio buddies, but also from most all of the systems I have heard at dealerships and audio shows over the years. Not all, but the vast majority.

Now, David has three systems.

Thanks Peter. Some of us had spread bets on Boston systems

 

[gian60]

Dear Peter,
congrats,you have a natural sound because all product you have have a natural sound,from Micro,to Lamm to Vitavox

 

[gian60]

I had 2 system in my life with very special natural sound,
One made by Yamamura in 1991 that teach me how is natural sound with preamp and amp mono 8 stack with trans superpermalloy and weight 300 kg full of special components and trans.
Also Ken Kessler came in my home to listen and did a report in Hi fi news in june 1992 and ask e gift 3/4 Swatch rare watch,he was a collector
Photo is very bad,sorry

 

[bonzo75]

Sorry he asked you for gift of Swatch?

 

[gian60]

An other incredible natural sound i had from 1005 till 2011 with Audio Tekne,where Imaisan came 5/6 home to my home to teach natural sound.
After having the Soundlab A1 with Sub mono B1 and top amp for that period i understood natural sound
With some limit on bass the sound was really natural

 

[gian60]

Sorry he asked you for gift of Swatch?

Yes,he was a collector and saw Swatch i had,so ask me some gift and i gave 3 or 4 very rare in that period,also iunderstood he liked a lot and i gift

 

[bonzo75]

Yes,he was a collector and saw Swatch i had,so ask me some gift and i gave 3 or 4 very rare in that period,also iunderstood he liked a lot and i gift

Gian, I am cartridge and TT collector. Can you help? I wrote a better article than Kessler I bet

 

[gian60]

Gian, I am cartridge and TT collector. Can you help? I wrote a better article than Kessler I bet

You are not a cartridge collector because are 2 years that push me to sell my analog system to buy a Lampi dac.
Then for write article i am sure anyone can beat you.

 

[Al M.]

An other incredible natural sound i had from 1005 till 2011 with Audio Tekne,where Imaisan came 5/6 home to my home to teach natural sound.
After having the Soundlab A1 with Sub mono B1 and top amp for that period i understood natural sound
With some limit on bass the sound was really natural

Gian, may I ask what were the attributes of this natural sound -- what was it that made it natural, in your opinion? Thanks.

 

[Lagonda]

An other incredible natural sound i had from 1005 till 2011 with Audio Tekne,where Imaisan came 5/6 home to my home to teach natural sound.
After having the Soundlab A1 with Sub mono B1 and top amp for that period i understood natural sound
With some limit on bass the sound was really natural

Why did you get rid of the system ? I understand having a small Japanese man living indefinitely in your guest rooms, while he conducts sound experimentation can put a toll on any marriage But you should have kept the system !

 

[morricab]

An other incredible natural sound i had from 1005 till 2011 with Audio Tekne,where Imaisan came 5/6 home to my home to teach natural sound.
After having the Soundlab A1 with Sub mono B1 and top amp for that period i understood natural sound
With some limit on bass the sound was really natural

Are those Audio Tekne speakers? Can you explain their design?

 

[ddk]

I'm one of those DIY horn guys. It's true, the tweaking never ends. That's the point of DIY. Sometimes I don't know what to do because I can't decide if anything is even wrong. When I'm stuck I just stop and listen, for months if that's what it takes, and wait for a perception to develop that is persistent across everything I listen to. Then I try to go after that - assuming I don't like it.

My opinion is that DIY is just a sliding scale. As far away as you could get would be to have someone design your room and choose every piece of equipment for you.

I have nothing against DIY and by continuous tweaking I wasn’t implying that you can’t improve some aspects of the speaker over time. My point was when the speakers have a major or fatal flaw and people spend years applying bandaid to it without knowing the cause or understanding the malady. It’s hard to make a good speaker no less a great one, you need multiple skill sets for even a simple rectangular box speaker with a flat baffle and 2-3 drivers. Building a good horn speaker is a tall order you have to know and understand woods and cabinets, horns commercial or custom, drivers, crossovers and how to put everything together, how many people have all those skills with some kind of commercial experience to put it together successfully? How many DIYers attempt at recreating a seemingly simple vintage speaker from factory blueprints using vintage drivers and fail? Why none of the WE copies don’t come anywhere near originals, there was nothing exotic that WE used in their large horns but there was knowledge, wisdom and a team of highly skilled engineers and craftsmen. Look around the world today show me one horn speaker system at any price that can do bass right, it includes high sensitivity. Outside of JBL show me one high end maker with a full range horn speaker at any price coming close to even a vintage Klipsch or VOTT. None of them know how to design a proper bass section, sticking a plate amp a dsp chip with a couple of drivers in a box is the limit of most today. You can spend a million dollars on such a horn speaker system and it will flat on it’s face compared to any of the better vintage ones, not even the best. I have a problem with any manufacturer who puts out a half ass speaker of any type with these plate amps and dsp then pretend that it’s a high end product. In DIY world anything goes but in commercial high end there has to be some standard beyond the man in his basement or garage. Bass is the Achilles Heel of digital it’s impossible to have real, natural quality bass using this tech, period.

david

 

[ddk]

An other incredible natural sound i had from 1005 till 2011 with Audio Tekne,where Imaisan came 5/6 home to my home to teach natural sound.
After having the Soundlab A1 with Sub mono B1 and top amp for that period i understood natural sound
With some limit on bass the sound was really natural

Bass is always the hardest thing to get right in any piece of equipment and not limited to just speakers.

david

 

[Lampie519]

I have nothing against DIY and by continuous tweaking I wasn’t implying that you can’t improve some aspects of the speaker over time. My point was when the speakers have a major or fatal flaw and people spend years applying bandaid to it without knowing the cause or understanding the malady. It’s hard to make a good speaker no less a great one, you need multiple skill sets for even a simple rectangular box speaker with a flat baffle and 2-3 drivers.

Some DIY'ers have become commercial and are now the hero's you are refering to when talking about "Klipsch" or "Voigt" to name a few...

 

[wil]

Oh I understand fine, you are listening to them with SS for godssake!

No , it would not be enough for me...and Avantgarde sounds like crap with SS amps. Who cares how many times you heard them this way. You didn’t hear them with SET amps, correct? And specifically not with your LAMMs, correct?

I do have a few years experience of using Avantgarde Grossos and Mezzo's with several pairing of both SET and SS. My experience was SS was better in every case with my AG's.

 

[ddk]

Some DIY'ers have become commercial and are now the hero's you are refering to when talking about "Klipsch" or "Voigt" to name a few...

Some DIY'ers have become commercial and are now the hero's you are refering to when talking about "Klipsch" or "Voigt" to name a few...

Of course, great minds are involved with DIY in every field not taking that from anyone. Both Voigt and Klipsch had the required comprehensive knowledge to be pioneers a create a lasting legacy, Jim Lansing is another one but but they all had to learn to run a company and control volume production with consistency, none really succeeded at that. Because of the cabinetry speakers have that additional challenge beyond the electrical and mechanical.

david