Natural Sound

[Lampie519]

Bass is always the hardest thing to get right in any piece of equipment and not limited to just speakers.

I found that planars can give a very natural bass if they are really big...
So from wall to wall and ground to ceiling.... not much power is needed then as well as they do not have to "work" so hard.

 

[ddk]

you haven’t heard the right ones then David. They are quite superior. Many bad ones sure

Maybe, and I’m sure that there are some but 3 decades is a long time and I’ve heard many one of a kind horn speakers, some money no object but the bass was never quite right or at the level of the better commercial vintage horns. For me it always comes down to bass quality and by bass I mean from mid down and a lot is involved in that region.

david

 

[Lampie519]

BTW, do you know of anyone having a Natural Sound system using DIY speakers he built himself?

DYI ESL's can sound very natural most of them just don't last... (this is an issue with many commercial ones too, including the companies that produces them),

 

[ddk]

I found that planars can give a very natural bass if they are really big...
So from wall to wall and ground to ceiling.... not much power is needed then as well as they do not have to "work" so hard.

Not IME, you have can have volume and some can be very impressive filling up the room but aside from SoundLab A1+B1 with some limitation I can’t think of any that had natural bass and I’ve owned plenty, at least all the known commercial ones and like them for a dozen or so year but today panels aren’t where I would ever go back to, if not horns then it’s box speakers for me.

david

 

[Lampie519]

at least all the known commercial ones

So you also had direct driven Acoustats and Beveridges as well?

 

[Lagonda]

Maybe, and I’m sure that there are some but 3 decades is a long time and I’ve heard many one of a kind horn speakers, some money no object but the bass was never quite right or at the level of the better commercial vintage horns. For me it always comes down to bass quality and by bass I mean from mid down and a lot is involved in that region.

david

It does look like you had to diy a little yourself with the Bionords to get that last part of the bass region right ! I am sure they where not born with a JBL subwoofer !

 

[ddk]

So you also had direct driven Acoustats and Beveridges as well?

I had Acoustats not direct driven, ok bass but not bottomed out at volume. I had several Beveridges that were direct driven, Beveridge is bass deficient, it’s all mids and lower highs. Their sub was a good attempt at a full range speaker but I never heard a pair successfully blended together including my own.

david

 

[ddk]

It does look like you had to diy a little yourself with the Bionords to get that last part of the bass region right ! I am sure they where not born with a JBL subwoofer !

I didn’t touch the bionors, the bass quality was always there. Subs don’t make the bass quality they can only ruin it in a good speaker! Adding a little extension which is more like a breath of air without affecting the sound quality of the main speaker took a lot of work and I still to need the Lamm ML2 and custom tube crossover to blend it in properly. You can feel the subs, there’s a sense of air, depth and width but not hear them, they don’t exist.

david

 

[Lampie519]

Acoustats not direct driven,

Then you have not heard what i try to explain. Plus the Beveridge Model 2 you see on the picture is not the SW version. So no filtering in the low end and no sub woofers needed. I do have a second pair with subs, as well...

My initial idea was to use the Acoustats as front and the Beveridges as rear speakers in my home theater (never happened though)...

 

[ddk]

Then you have not heard what i try to explain. Plus the Beveridge Model 2 you see on the picture is not the SW version. So no filtering in the low end and no sub woofers needed. I do have a second pair with subs, as well...

I had all the Beveridge speakers and was in touch with Modjeski for several upgrades to his amps. I love them for what they did but it’s just how they are, like an Olympic athlete without any legs below the knees.

david

 

[Lagonda]

I didn’t touch the bionors, the bass quality was always there. Subs don’t make the bass quality they can only ruin it in a good speaker! Adding a little extension which is more like a breath of air without affecting the sound quality of the main speaker took a lot of work and I still to need the Lamm ML2 and custom tube crossover to blend it in properly. You can feel the subs, there’s a sense of air, depth and width but not hear them, they don’t exist.

david

I know the length you went to get those subs right, not a lot of high- efficiency large subs driven by Lamm SET tubes out there ! You always give the credit to the old builders of these vintage products, a large part of making it sound "Natural" is the meticulous setup that has taken you years to perfect. I am sure Peter will get a substantial improvement when you visit too.

 

[Lampie519]

I had all the Beveridge speakers and was in touch with Modjeski for several upgrades to his amps. I love them for what they did but it’s just how they are, like an Olympic athlete without any legs below the knee

Probably the room was too big for these "small" speakers...
It is a shame as they can be really nice.

 

[ddk]

Probably the room was too big for these "small" speakers...
It is a shame as they can be really nice.

No, had them for years and in many different rooms. I always loved speakers and turntables (still do !), bought so many of them and learnt from living with favorite ones for years.
david

 

[microstrip]

Not IME, you have can have volume and some can be very impressive filling up the room but aside from SoundLab A1+B1 with some limitation I can’t think of any that had natural bass and I’ve owned plenty, at least all the known commercial ones and like them for a dozen or so year but today panels aren’t where I would ever go back to, if not horns then it’s box speakers for me.

david

SoundLab A1 PX's need power. The Lamm ML3 could not drive them in my room, even the Lamm M1.2R was border line for the A1 PX. The best bass quality I got from them was with the Audio Research REF750 and the VTL Siegfried II.

Older SoundLabs's had less treble extension than the current ones and had a more benign impedance. But modern ones are more efficient.

Although IMHO they sound great with the big Atmasphere OTL's, Roger West (the designer and manufacturer) uses them with solid state amplifiers. My only concern with the A1 Px's is that panel repairs need shipping the enormous boxes to the US.

The old flat models A2x and A4 also sounded great - the separate curved electrostatic tweeter sounded really pure and airy, much sweeter than Martin Logan's, for example.

 

[microstrip]

DYI ESL's can sound very natural most of them just don't last... (this is an issue with many commercial ones too, including the companies that produces them),

If they are DIY no problem, the panel will be easily replaceable by the user. I have a can of Lycron waiting for the proper time to carry a few experiments!

 

[ddk]

SoundLab A1 PX's need power. The Lamm ML3 could not drive them in my room, even the Lamm M1.2R was border line for the A1 PX. The best bass quality I got from them was with the Audio Research REF750 and the VTL Siegfried II.

Older SoundLabs's had less treble extension than the current ones and had a more benign impedance. But modern ones are more efficient.

Although IMHO they sound great with the big Atmasphere OTL's, Roger West (the designer and manufacturer) uses them with solid state amplifiers. My only concern with the A1 Px's is that panel repairs need shipping the enormous boxes to the US.

The old flat models A2x and A4 also sounded great - the separate curved electrostatic tweeter sounded really pure and airy, much sweeter than Martin Logan's, for example.

I owned them in the 80’s still with the wood frames and white screens and even back then you couldn’t drive them with any SET. I had them for several years and went back and forth between various tube and high powered solid state electronics. Same with my Apogee Divas. There were moments that I really loved the sound of these completely different panels. Never liked any ML speaker that I owned, they didn’t do anything good IMO and love affair with ribbons and ESLs died with the purchase of Apogee Grands and Krell Reference Standards to drive them!

david

PS. Roger’s place is only an hour away from me, also I have a close friend with the latest versions, little more resolution but they lack the beauty of the originals.

 

[Kcin]

I had all the Beveridge speakers and was in touch with Modjeski for several upgrades to his amps. I love them for what they did but it’s just how they are, like an Olympic athlete without any legs below the knees.

david

I agree on the performance of stock Bevs.

I do have the Beveridges now. I took the Model IIIs and ripped out the crossover networks and modified them by building a direct drive straight to the panels with a vacuum tube input stage as well- in which the the originals were SS in the Model 2's. Then over a year of experimentation with crossovers and subs until I landed on a combination that works for me. Hint, LESS is more here, very expensive outboard crossovers spoiled everything the Bevs do exceptionally well.


It's difficult for me to give up the Olympic athlete now , in your analogy, when I have grafted the legs on! Certainly not perfect, but wow, they do some things that are difficult to create otherwise. Very possible now to get them more correct with modern subs than what was available back 40 years ago.


On Modjeski, he helped me greatly. He was always willing to teach and sometimes scold me for my esoteric views. He was a great asset to the industry and a brilliant engineer in analog audio.

Back to the regular program........

 

[ddk]

I agree on the performance of stock Bevs.

I do have the Beveridges now. I took the Model IIIs and ripped out the crossover networks and modified them by building a direct drive straight to the panels with a vacuum tube input stage as well- in which the the originals were SS in the Model 2's. Then over a year of experimentation with crossovers and subs until I landed on a combination that works for me. Hint, LESS is more here, very expensive outboard crossovers spoiled everything the Bevs do exceptionally well.


It's difficult for me to give up the Olympic athlete now , in your analogy, when I have grafted the legs on! Certainly not perfect, but wow, they do some things that are difficult to create otherwise. Very possible now to get them more correct with modern subs than what was available back 40 years ago.


On Modjeski, he helped me greatly. He was always willing to teach and sometimes scold me for my esoteric views. He was a great asset to the industry and a brilliant engineer in analog audio.

Back to the regular program........

Don’t know about you Nick but 30 years ago I didn’t know what I know today, the problem wasn’t with the old subs!

david

 

[Kcin]

Don’t know about you Nick but 30 years ago I didn’t know what I know today, the problem wasn’t with the old subs!

david

True enough. I was about 19 years old when I heard them for the first time with a Goldmund Studio/ T3 - I was blown away and they ruined me for years.

Maybe you got smarter............ I find the modern tech subs easier to work with !

 

[bonzo75]

Maybe, and I’m sure that there are some but 3 decades is a long time and I’ve heard many one of a kind horn speakers, some money no object but the bass was never quite right or at the level of the better commercial vintage horns. For me it always comes down to bass quality and by bass I mean from mid down and a lot is involved in that region.

david

sure, most horns suffer in midbass and bass and sound bad because of all the compromises they try to do in that region. And the holy grail is finding the one that does it right and is well integrated through the crossover