Natural Sound

[Lampie519]

My DSP 1 (Yamaha) works magic with...
my Korg 700s synth...

 

[christoph]

This is interesting to me. This is yet another example of the un-bridgeable subjective sonic divide.

Brad and I will never understand how others can find that Avantgarde speakers driven by solid-state amplifiers sound natural and believable.

You can count me in.
AG always sounded dreadful with SS when I heard them

 

[bonzo75]

I'm not going down the road of whether the sound it makes is natural or not.

Party pooper

 

[rando]

THX killed going to the movies for me can’t stand the sound, listening to music with dsp urrrgh!

Where it diverted from recapturing WE speakers authority in an attempt at recreating analog of that high quality in the digital sphere is a matter I'd not doubt you are well versed in.

 

[tima]

Yes unless I can get a bigger place. So the real estate cost factors in. But this is also the space required to make a big apogee or a cone speaker pulled out from the walls sound good l. And once you have the space, the room matters less than with cones in terms of not booming etc

How 'bout 16' x 20 ' ; 29 sq m ?

 

[bonzo75]

How 'bout 16' x 20 ' ; 29 sq m ?

16 is wide, so that's good. It will work..

 

[microstrip]

(...)
Brad and I will never understand how others can find that Avantgarde speakers driven by solid-state amplifiers sound natural and believable.

Ron,

As long as we do not realize that negative experiences have much less weight than the positive ones we are very far from understanding others. There are tens of reasons why a system can sound miserable and it is very hard to find exactly why in a demo.

 

[Lampie519]

If someone spend years to tune a system in a specific room, how can a demo , setup in a few hours compete with that in an unknown/different environment?

 

[tima]

How 'bout 16' x 20 ' ; 29 sq m ?

16 is wide, so that's good. It will work..

Good. That's my room. 8ft ceiling.

 

[morricab]

Ron,

As long as we do not realize that negative experiences have much less weight than the positive ones we are very far from understanding others. There are tens of reasons why a system can sound miserable and it is very hard to find exactly why in a demo.

Aggressive highs, very forward presentation with all music, relatively flat imaging and soundstaging...these were some of the negatives I got from listening to AGs with SS and Class D.

 

[microstrip]

Aggressive highs, very forward presentation with all music, relatively flat imaging and soundstaging...these were some of the negatives I got from listening to AGs with SS and Class D.

What can we conclude from it? That something was very wrong in the sound of such demo, not that they will sound that way every time.

I listened to AG's sounding fluid, with plenty of layering and depth with their older SS. It does not prove to me they will always sound that way, but just that they can sound that way under proper conditions. Remember that in this hobby a simple cable mismatch can ruin a system.

 

[Lampie519]

What can we conclude from it? That something was very wrong in the sound of such demo, not that they will sound that way every time.

Yes, maybe...
But then they should not try to demonstrate it this way (unless they do not have ears themselves)...

I remember a demo of the "Steinway" system by Lingdorf and the distributor told me (as i had some comments as usual) that the room was not optimal to demo this system.... i replied...how is this possible with the Lyngdorf room correcting software embedded.... he did not laugh...

 

[Audiophile Bill]

What can we conclude from it? That something was very wrong in the sound of such demo, not that they will sound that way every time.

I listened to AG's sounding fluid, with plenty of layering and depth with their older SS. It does not prove to me they will always sound that way, but just that they can sound that way under proper conditions. Remember that in this hobby a simple cable mismatch can ruin a system.

I think Brad has heard AG a lot of times and was never impressed by a ss implementation for them.
I have personally never enjoyed an AG install with solid state either. Doesn’t mean it can never be possible of course but based on all the observations that has been my experience.

That being said, I think this is actually a red herring. I don’t see any specific reason why an AG Trio (the speaker in question) would be any different to any other efficient horn based system of that approximate design - say Cessaro for example in regards to amplifier preference. If you love what the best SETs can do, then nothing else will suffice imho. The Trio is highly sensitive and with very SET friendly impedance.

I personally cannot fathom why on earth one would want to use solid state on a trio. Perhaps if all you wanted was cool running very high level output with super low noise for PA then I can see. To me the r’aison d’etre of a speaker like Trio is to be able to have the opportunity to use SET amplification.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Yes, maybe...
But then they should not try to demonstrate it this way (unless they do not have ears themselves)...

I remember a demo of the "Steinway" system by Lingdorf and the distributor told me (as i had some comments as usual) that the room was not optimal to demo this system.... i replied...how is this possible with the Lyngdorf room correcting software embedded.... he did not laugh...

Talk about “own goal” lol. You go to hear a speaker that “takes the room out the equation” only to be told by the proponent that it doesn’t

 

[microstrip]

(...) I personally cannot fathom why on earth one would want to use solid state on a trio. Perhaps if all you wanted was cool running very high level output with super low noise for PA then I can see. To me the r’aison d’etre of a speaker like Trio is to be able to have the opportunity to use SET amplification.

Well, the main reason I stay mostly with tubes is that in the used market they mainly represent much better value for money - I do not consider that tubes or SET sound intrinsically better than solid state. Very often tube equipment can be a source of trouble and most users do not want to stand with it.

 

[microstrip]

Yes, maybe...
But then they should not try to demonstrate it this way (unless they do not have ears themselves)...

I remember a demo of the "Steinway" system by Lingdorf and the distributor told me (as i had some comments as usual) that the room was not optimal to demo this system.... i replied...how is this possible with the Lyngdorf room correcting software embedded.... he did not laugh...

He was not a member of WBF - if he had read our forum he would immediately tell you the problem were the first reflections and that the Lyngdorf room correcting software can't correct first reflections ...

 

[Lampie519]

Very often tube equipment can be a source of trouble and most users do not want to stand with it.

Funny, in case a transistor amp fails (bad soldering or relais contacts of the protection circuit) then this is natural and not considered a fault of the manufacturer or topology. In case of tube failures it is blamed on the topology !
Now, if everyone just keep the original tubes in the amp, then the amp (incl.tubes) would last much longer ! Most tube amps fail because of the mods made and not because the amps are bad.

 

[Lagonda]

I am getting good results with DSP/DIY horns...I found that the biggest problem with DSP systems is the DACs. Once you use your own, high quality DACs, the sound improves dramatically. That said, I will try an active analog crossover at some point (once I find one I think is good enough). Getting the time alignment of the drivers right really makes for great coherence. Getting the FR right doesn't hurt either (sounds better than leaving it native). Is it as natural sounding as my main system? Probably not...but one can listen for hours to it without fatigue.

Brad, are you processing the highs with DSP too ? Or just the bass range ?

 

[morricab]

What can we conclude from it? That something was very wrong in the sound of such demo, not that they will sound that way every time.

I listened to AG's sounding fluid, with plenty of layering and depth with their older SS. It does not prove to me they will always sound that way, but just that they can sound that way under proper conditions. Remember that in this hobby a simple cable mismatch can ruin a system.

It was not one demo...it was several...so no we cannot conclude that something was wrong with every demo but something was wrong with the choice of electronics.

I heard AGs with both their old amps (I have been hearing AGs for about 20 years now in various settings), which were quite low power, their new amps and other SS and Class D amps (Esoteric and Luxman and Devialet). Same result. Compared to what I heard with Thomas Mayer amps and Audiopax amps it was night and day...with the tube amps providing much more of what you describe you hear from SS.

Have you actually heard AGs with SET amps? It seems like you have not.

 

[PeterA]

Yes unless I can get a bigger place. So the real estate cost factors in. But this is also the space required to make a big apogee or a cone speaker pulled out from the walls sound good l. And once you have the space, the room matters less than with cones in terms of not booming etc

You may just have to be content with attending live concerts and visiting other people's systems. I'd start with a tour of Boston. I know of five WBF systems though I have heard only four of them. You man have to hack into those email exchanges and finagle an invitation.