Natural Sound

morricab

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Brad, be mindful of the time difference and please be patient. Keith's post came earlier and took little time or thought to respond to. I just saw your question. No, I do not think this thread is about SET/horn. There are many threads on that topic. This thread is about something else and how some horns and some SETs can produce a certain type of sound. Of course, you know much more than I about that subject.

It took me years to optimize my former system. I lived with it and knew it well by the end. This new system is very new, and I have no prior experience with tubes or horns. Yes, the system is settling, and so am I, but neither is "settled". David thinks it will be months for the speaker cabinets to acclimate. He is coming to fine tune the system, perhaps improve the cartridge/arm set up, and when I move the electronics from the floor platforms to the new rack, things will need time to settle again.

I do have further thoughts, but some require independent thoughts for validity. My friend who knew the old system well stopped by yesterday for lunch, music and sailing. We came back for tea and more music. We did discuss his thoughts about the overall sound and particularly the sense of balance, listening perspective, bass quality.

He found the sound very balanced top to bottom in general and at the scale of the note in particular. He did not find the leading edge/transient "de-emphasized" and lacking relative to the rest of the note, but in proportion and appropriate. He agreed with my comments that when listening close to an instrument, it is not only the leading edge and transient that is emphasize or pronounced, but rather the whole note, the attack, the sustain, and the decay. This is how my system presents the note. The highs are not more or less emphasized than the midrange or the bass. They are in proportion and balanced. This is the reason that no aspect of this draws attention to itself. It is only relative to other systems which present the music differently, that one may see something lacking and focus on that aspect. The reference should be real music, not another system.

That observation led to the listening perspective. The listening perspective depends on the size and character of the images and soundstage captured on the recording and presented by the system. An emphasized leading edge does not bring one closer to the musician if the sustain and decay are not emphasized. It only makes the attack seem out of balance and aggressive. It has nothing to do with how close the listener perceives the instruments. That depends on the ambient cues presented through the system and the scale and size of the performers.

We listened to a Beethoven piano sonata. We discussed the touch on the keys. There were soft and loud, low notes and high notes, but significantly, there was the subtle nuance of the pianist's light and heavy hand - his touch. This nuance is where the emotion lives. The Technics moving magnet gets this right. The higher output vdH in this system was too much and forced everything, but it had extraordinary resolution. The vdH now returned with lower output gets it all, the nuance and the resolution.

My friend and I listened compared the two cartridges on both the piano sonata and on Sonny Rollins, Way Out West. He heard the nuance on both, but remarked how much more resolving the vdH is. He also thought the latter had much more clarity. I think that is related to resolution.

Finally, he remarked on the bass quality of the system. This was one of the weaknesses of the former system. Although it improved over time, it was never quite balanced with the rest of the sound. David says that the bass is the hardest part of a system to get right. The new system gets the bass right, at least to my ears. It is not lacking relative to the rest of the sound. The bass has a very natural quality. It is full and hollow and nuanced. Bass strings sound looser than other strings, the body sounds bigger and woody. Drum skins are taught and resonate. Timbre in this frequency range has never sounded so distinct in my room.

This is such an improvement over what I had before that I notice it when asked about it, but mostly it sounds so right, along with the rest, that I simply listen to the music. Before, the weaker bass stood out and the lack of balance was noticeable. Not little or nothing stands out.

If pressed for a weakness, I would say the speakers, on only some specific tracks, do not disappear quite to the same extent as the much smaller Magicos brought out into the room did. I do not know the reason for that, but it may have to do with further settling, something to do with set up, or perhaps the protruding fireplace interrupting the vented output from the speakers. It is a minor issue because I am drawn into the music much more than before and not to the sound of the system which basically disappears. At least I am not aware of the sound of the system to the extent I am with most of the systems I hear.

I am very pleased with how things are sounding and improving over time. The low output vdH Colibri Grand Cru is really sounding superb. My second one has just been modified and will soon be back on its way. I have not thoughts about changes. At this point I am looking forward to my new rack, Jeff Tyo's visit next week and David's visit after that.

Smooth sailing ahead.
Hi Peter,
Thanks for the detailed response. My comment about this being a SET/Horn thread was a bit of joke.

I wanted to address the bass comments. I too have horn bass and love the way it delivers superior texture and punch to conventional bass loading. In university I had Klipsch La Scalas that also have horn bass and it was pretty awesome and effortless. My only reservation with horn bass is that with horns the size that fit comfortably domestically in a room you don't really get the bottom octave. I get around 40Hz (maybe 35) but the mid and upper bass is explosive, nuance and textured...really superior for things like kick drums, plucked bass, bowed bass, cellos, tympani etc. I find that string quartets and quintets (I especially recommend Schubert's famous string quintet that has double cellos...woody goodness!) sound extremely natural (compared to live not other systems) with good horns and SETs, which you clearly have.

I think you will have fun with Jeff's visit...he's a good guy (I met him in 2019 in Cali)...I am sure he is VERY curious about your system.

Regarding the not always disappearing like the Magicos, Have you thought about removing this grill that sits over the high frequency horn? This might be causing some diffraction at certain frequencies that could then draw attention to the location of the sound. I remember the old magazine Audio that used to measure the frequency response of speakers with and without their grills. In most cases, the grills altered the frequency response significantly because of diffraction. Smart companies, who really wanted you to use the grills, actually made sure the balance was correct with the grills on. I would try taking off the grill (I know it looks better on) just to see if the speaker does a better disappearing act.
 

spiritofmusic

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Brad, be mindful of the time difference and please be patient. Keith's post came earlier and took little time or thought to respond to. I just saw your question. No, I do not think this thread is about SET/horn. There are many threads on that topic. This thread is about something else and how some horns and some SETs can produce a certain type of sound. Of course, you know much more than I about that subject.

It took me years to optimize my former system. I lived with it and knew it well by the end. This new system is very new, and I have no prior experience with tubes or horns. Yes, the system is settling, and so am I, but neither is "settled". David thinks it will be months for the speaker cabinets to acclimate. He is coming to fine tune the system, perhaps improve the cartridge/arm set up, and when I move the electronics from the floor platforms to the new rack, things will need time to settle again.

I do have further thoughts, but some require independent thoughts for validity. My friend who knew the old system well stopped by yesterday for lunch, music and sailing. We came back for tea and more music. We did discuss his thoughts about the overall sound and particularly the sense of balance, listening perspective, bass quality.

He found the sound very balanced top to bottom in general and at the scale of the note in particular. He did not find the leading edge/transient "de-emphasized" and lacking relative to the rest of the note, but in proportion and appropriate. He agreed with my comments that when listening close to an instrument, it is not only the leading edge and transient that is emphasize or pronounced, but rather the whole note, the attack, the sustain, and the decay. This is how my system presents the note. The highs are not more or less emphasized than the midrange or the bass. They are in proportion and balanced. This is the reason that no aspect of this draws attention to itself. It is only relative to other systems which present the music differently, that one may see something lacking and focus on that aspect. The reference should be real music, not another system.

That observation led to the listening perspective. The listening perspective depends on the size and character of the images and soundstage captured on the recording and presented by the system. An emphasized leading edge does not bring one closer to the musician if the sustain and decay are not emphasized. It only makes the attack seem out of balance and aggressive. It has nothing to do with how close the listener perceives the instruments. That depends on the ambient cues presented through the system and the scale and size of the performers.

We listened to a Beethoven piano sonata. We discussed the touch on the keys. There were soft and loud, low notes and high notes, but significantly, there was the subtle nuance of the pianist's light and heavy hand - his touch. This nuance is where the emotion lives. The Technics moving magnet gets this right. The higher output vdH in this system was too much and forced everything, but it had extraordinary resolution. The vdH now returned with lower output gets it all, the nuance and the resolution.

My friend and I listened compared the two cartridges on both the piano sonata and on Sonny Rollins, Way Out West. He heard the nuance on both, but remarked how much more resolving the vdH is. He also thought the latter had much more clarity. I think that is related to resolution.

Finally, he remarked on the bass quality of the system. This was one of the weaknesses of the former system. Although it improved over time, it was never quite balanced with the rest of the sound. David says that the bass is the hardest part of a system to get right. The new system gets the bass right, at least to my ears. It is not lacking relative to the rest of the sound. The bass has a very natural quality. It is full and hollow and nuanced. Bass strings sound looser than other strings, the body sounds bigger and woody. Drum skins are taught and resonate. Timbre in this frequency range has never sounded so distinct in my room.

This is such an improvement over what I had before that I notice it when asked about it, but mostly it sounds so right, along with the rest, that I simply listen to the music. Before, the weaker bass stood out and the lack of balance was noticeable. Not little or nothing stands out.

If pressed for a weakness, I would say the speakers, on only some specific tracks, do not disappear quite to the same extent as the much smaller Magicos brought out into the room did. I do not know the reason for that, but it may have to do with further settling, something to do with set up, or perhaps the protruding fireplace interrupting the vented output from the speakers. It is a minor issue because I am drawn into the music much more than before and not to the sound of the system which basically disappears. At least I am not aware of the sound of the system to the extent I am with most of the systems I hear.

I am very pleased with how things are sounding and improving over time. The low output vdH Colibri Grand Cru is really sounding superb. My second one has just been modified and will soon be back on its way. I have not thoughts about changes. At this point I am looking forward to my new rack, Jeff Tyo's visit next week and David's visit after that.

Smooth sailing ahead.
Peter, that's a really nice, informative account of your change, evokes nothing but feelgood factor.
Congrats.
 
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KeithR

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Keith, why don’t you and Brad have this conversation on the SET/horn thread? What is relevant on my system thread is that the lamb ML2 is a good match for my speakers and vice versa. What the heck does it matter how popular a combination it is?

You encouraged me to go up and down the East Coast to audition a bunch of horn speakers and other high-efficiency speakers. Presumably some would have been driven by SET amplifiers. I went to Utah instead and heard vintage with SETs. It does not really matter to me what gear is at the LA audio show.
sheesh, Peter. you're so offended over generic conversation that is indeed related to your system. and i note, ddk isn't exactly on topic here but you call Brad/I out.

if you're going to spout off that SET/horns is "natural sound" that is the *title of this thread*, give me a break when people talk about the genre.
 

Mikem53

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sheesh, Peter. you're so offended over generic conversation that is indeed related to your system. and i note, ddk isn't exactly on topic here but you call Brad/I out.

if you're going to spout off that SET/horns is "natural sound" that is the *title of this thread*, give me a break when people talk about the genre.
In all fairness, this is the members gallery and peters system.. A more generic conversation about sets and horns should be elsewhere.. but I have enjoyed and learned some interesting facts and perspectives from y’all. and witnessed some personality disorders.. ;)
 

PeterA

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sheesh, Peter. you're so offended over generic conversation that is indeed related to your system. and i note, ddk isn't exactly on topic here but you call Brad/I out.

if you're going to spout off that SET/horns is "natural sound" that is the *title of this thread*, give me a break when people talk about the genre.

Keith, nowhere did I say SET/horn is natural sound. You are imagining that or making it up. This thread is about a specific SET amplifier a specific corner horn speaker and the natural sound that combination presents.

I am sure if I had gone on the tour you suggested of various horn manufacturers here in the Northeast, some of those horns would’ve been paired with SET amplifiers. Since I did not go on the tour and went to Utah instead, the discussion is not about that.

i’m not sensitive about anything I do not get offended easily. I would just prefer it if the thread I started about my own system remained on topic. This thread has nothing to do with the availability of SET amplifiers in Southern California or what was going on at some audio show.
 
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wil

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sheesh, Peter. you're so offended over generic conversation that is indeed related to your system. and i note, ddk isn't exactly on topic here but you call Brad/I out.

if you're going to spout off that SET/horns is "natural sound" that is the *title of this thread*, give me a break when people talk about the genre.
I agree that the meanderings from direct reference to your system are still related and help make it a thought provoking thread. When you want to bring it back to your system, all you have to do is share something about it and your evolving experience of it and then the thread will focus there -- until it wanders again... But it's certainly up to you if you want to put up walls, and I'll respect it.
 
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morricab

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Keith, nowhere did I say SET/horn is natural sound. You are imagining that or making it up. This thread is about a specific SET amplifier a specific corner horn speaker and the natural sound that combination presents.

I am sure if I had gone on the tour you suggested of various horn manufacturers here in the Northeast, some of those horns would’ve been paired with SET amplifiers. Since I did not go on the tour and went to Utah instead, the discussion is not about that.

i’m not sensitive about anything I do not get offended easily. I would just prefer it if the thread I started about my own system remained on topic. This thread has nothing to do with the availability of SET amplifiers in Southern California or what was going on at some audio show.
Well Peter that’s a bit disingenuous to say that you don’t consider SET/horn “natural sound” when you scrapped your whole system for just that very thing. At the very least it is implicit that you consider those gear choices as relevant to attaining natural sound. Most of what you heard in Utah was SET/horn as well. I also consider my SET/horn system natural sound as do most who have heard it. It might be slightly OT but it is definitely not tangential to the discussion.
 

PeterA

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Well Peter that’s a bit disingenuous to say that you don’t consider SET/horn “natural sound” when you scrapped your whole system for just that very thing. At the very least it is implicit that you consider those gear choices as relevant to attaining natural sound. Most of what you heard in Utah was SET/horn as well. I also consider my SET/horn system natural sound as do most who have heard it. It might be slightly OT but it is definitely not tangential to the discussion.

I disagree Brad. I scrapped my system for a different system. That decision was based on the sound of the system, not SETs and horns. I never claimed that SET/horn equals "natural sound" as Keith wrote. Nor did I ever write that it does not. It all depends and I have little experience so I can not make gross generalizations.

I have written a number of times that I think my new particular SET/horn combination presents a type of sound that is described as "Natural Sound". I have heard systems that do not have SETs and systems that do not have horns that also present this type of sound. Jeffrey_T's system, and David's Mitsubishi system are examples. I have not heard many that sound like this.

Perhaps you should discuss your system and how it sounds natural in your system thread. I would be interested to read about your system evolution, see the videos and photos, and hear all about it. Why do you think it sounds natural or any other adjective you choose and what lead to those decisions. That would be great.
 
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Kingrex

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No, you are wrong. Psychoacoustic studies show that our hearing is all very similar in the way it functions, especially with regard to how we perceive distortion and the masking mechanisms employed by the ear/brain. You are right that it in no way means that 100% of people will prefer the same thing...that would be wishful thinking in psychology. However, the studies show that there are clear correlations and trends that mean that most people are likely to have similar preferences and designing to fit this kind of model will result in better sounding gear.

I wouldn't be too sure that Peter's system can't rock...I know Klipschorns, which the Vitavox is loosely based, can really rock that house with only a few watts. I had Klipsch La Scallas in college and they were one of the best Rock party speakers I ever heard. When you are over 100db/watt those 18 watt Lamms are about equivalent to 400 watt SS monsters on an 88db speaker.
I don't think you and Bonzo are right. If you want to focus on a word "slam". Then that's a argument over vernacular.

And a conversation over pleasing or annoying distortion would seriously derail Peters thread.
 
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morricab

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I disagree Brad. I scrapped my system for a different system. That decision was based on the sound of the system, not SETs and horns. I never claimed that SET/horn equals "natural sound" as Keith wrote. Nor did I ever write that it does not. It all depends and I have little experience so I can not make gross generalizations.

I have written a number of times that I think my new particular SET/horn combination presents a type of sound that is described as "Natural Sound". I have heard systems that do not have SETs and systems that do not have horns that also present this type of sound. Jeffrey_T's system, and David's Mitsubishi system are examples. I have not heard many that sound like this.

Perhaps you should discuss your system and how it sounds natural in your system thread. I would be interested to read about your system evolution, see the videos and photos, and hear all about it. Why do you think it sounds natural or any other adjective you choose and what lead to those decisions. That would be great.
Jeff’s system uses horns (at least from about 800hz and up...just like David’s JBLs). He doesn’t have SET but LAMM PP Class A Triode is not far off. David’s Mitsubishi system still used Lamm SET. See a pattern emerging?

You didn’t scrap your old system for just any system...you didn’t bring home JBLs or Mitsubishi Diatones, you brought home very exotic and full horn Vitavox speakers...and SETs.

I have put some videos and photos of my system on the forum already. There are quite a few actually. I don’t feel the need to have a dedicated thread to my main system...I have one already for my DIY system (maybe go have a look) in a speaker design sub forum.
 

morricab

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I don't think you and Bonzo are right. If you want to focus on a word "slam". Then that's a argument over vernacular.

And a conversation over pleasing or annoying distortion would seriously derail Peters thread.
I won’t go further here on those topics. I am surprised about your arguments given you are a SET/horn guy yourself...guess those psychoacoustics worked on you too...;)
 

bazelio

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I disagree Brad. I scrapped my system for a different system. That decision was based on the sound of the system, not SETs and horns. I never claimed that SET/horn equals "natural sound" as Keith wrote. Nor did I ever write that it does not. It all depends and I have little experience so I can not make gross generalizations.

I have written a number of times that I think my new particular SET/horn combination presents a type of sound that is described as "Natural Sound". I have heard systems that do not have SETs and systems that do not have horns that also present this type of sound. Jeffrey_T's system, and David's Mitsubishi system are examples. I have not heard many that sound like this.

Perhaps you should discuss your system and how it sounds natural in your system thread. I would be interested to read about your system evolution, see the videos and photos, and hear all about it. Why do you think it sounds natural or any other adjective you choose and what lead to those decisions. That would be great.
There's a transitive property at play here which shouldn't be too difficult to tease out, Peter.

I'm in the camp who agrees that many/most of the thread meanderings are related. Unless you're trying to lay absolute claim to "Natural Sound", Peter, then discussion herein is bound to deviate from your system - just as it has in posts by ddk and tima ad nauseam. Title your thread what you want, but "Natural Sound" is provocative. And, TBH, I think you've known that all along.
 
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bonzo75

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How on earth can you guys still be going on... do you not get tired of saying the exact same things, ever?
Same thing over and over is on topic
 
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microstrip

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(...) My current thought on your question is that Lamm preamps exhibit a fundamental character we might call 'the Lamm sound.' As you move up the line (the LL2.1 is entry) that character does not change but its exhibition, its presentation becomes more sophisticated with increasing nuance at the frequency extensions. Increasingly better dynamics, resolution, and authority among other characteristics. Perhaps the lesser variable is tonality which from my experience thus far finds gorgeous no matter which model you have. No doubt there is improvement in tonality as you move up the line - perhaps because other elements are better - but by then one is already smitten.
Both are very quiet. The L2.1 Ref appreciably benefits from a larger power supply that comes in its own box.

IMHO the character of the LL1 is fundamentally different from the L2 Reference. We could easily say that the two preamplifiers were from different brands.

I may try to tease out the differences that make up improvements in more detail when I write about the LP1 Sig, having had the LP2.1 deluxe phono. The jump there is pretty significant. Later this year the LL1.1 Sig should show up. We'll see. As one moves up the tiers - and this holds for components other than Lamm - there are only so many "more thans", "deepers", and "clearers" one can write before the differences in degree are diminished by the repetitiveness of the vocabulary.

Yes, some reviewers exhausted their superlatives in the L2 REF. They would have difficulties finding words to describe the LL1.
 

tima

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IMHO the character of the LL1 is fundamentally different from the L2 Reference. We could easily say that the two preamplifiers were from different brands.

The royal 'We' does not suit the vacuity of this response.

Yes, some reviewers exhausted their superlatives in the L2 REF. They would have difficulties finding words to describe the LL1.

Name them and explain their difficulties.
 

Andrew S.

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I disagree Brad. I scrapped my system for a different system. That decision was based on the sound of the system, not SETs and horns. I never claimed that SET/horn equals "natural sound" as Keith wrote. Nor did I ever write that it does not. It all depends and I have little experience so I can not make gross generalizations.

I have written a number of times that I think my new particular SET/horn combination presents a type of sound that is described as "Natural Sound". I have heard systems that do not have SETs and systems that do not have horns that also present this type of sound. Jeffrey_T's system, and David's Mitsubishi system are examples. I have not heard many that sound like this.

Perhaps you should discuss your system and how it sounds natural in your system thread. I would be interested to read about your system evolution, see the videos and photos, and hear all about it. Why do you think it sounds natural or any other adjective you choose and what lead to those decisions. That would be great.
What a wonderfully well written and thoughtful post. And exactly why WBF is/should be, in my respectful view, a wide Church that accommodates all and derides none. Rank stupidity and rudeness aside…
 

Andrew S.

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“The royal 'We' does not suit the vacuity of this response.”

Ouch - but well put Tim, well put.
 
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jeffrey_t

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I had the pleasure of visiting PeterA’s system last week for a listening session with the added of bonus of meeting MadFloyd for the first time. We had a great listening session and went to lunch in the beautiful Marblehead harbor.

I had visited Peter several years before to hear the Magico and Pass Labs system. I really enjoyed this system and thought it was the best Magico system I had heard. During the Magico/Pass session we listened to classical, small combo jazz, singer/songwriter and finished off with Pink Floyd. Where the Magico/Pass system utterly failed was Pink Floyd’s Dark Side of the Moon. From the very first “rush” of sound at the beginning, it lacked scale, sound stage and was undynamic. I concluded that if you listened to choral music, small combo jazz and singer/songwriter music the system was great. For large symphonies or rock, it was not convincing enough for my tastes.

Three years ago, Peter came to Los Angeles with his daughter to visit colleges and during that visit he visited a few audio systems with Ron. He came over to hear my system, which consists of all Lamm playback and custom JBL horn speakers made by PBN Audio with four paper 15’s. One of the first records I played was Dark Side, I wanted to demonstrate the scale that my system could produce. Also, I wanted him to hear the magic that Lamm brings to any system. He seemed relatively impressed with the system, especially with the playback of Dark Side. I did also tell him that my audio gurus in Seattle used Lamm and vintage speakers and were following the advice of DDK and Rommy the Cat. I’m not saying I’m responsible for were Peter ended up with his system or visiting DDK, just that my system might have been a data point for him along the journey.

Ian, Peter and I listened to several pieces of music including:
  • Mozart quartet (Grameaux)
  • Rimsky Korsakov Scheherazade (Reiner)
  • Miles Davis Kind of Blue
  • Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon
We started with a Mozart string quartet. Peter started spinning the record on his flawless Micro Seiki 8000 Mk2 (I’ve seen a few but never one so clean) with the VDH and SME 3012R. I was immediately struck by the presence of the strings in the room and that resolution. You could hear the individual instruments, but they blended perfectly and did not call attention to themselves, just like live classical sounds to my ears. At first the sound seemed to come from the speakers, which is different from my system where this image is tightly in the center and slightly behind the speakers. But once I closed my eyes, the image did materialize in front of me. I had to “retrain” my brain to be less analytical and let the sound flow into the room. Zero strain, zero compression, just pure music.

We listened to the final movement of Scheherazade and increased the volume. This was a real treat as the flow of the system really allowed the music to present itself. Again, we were treated to full range and glorious sounding music, nothing calls attention to itself, the music just flows. The system has less treble energy than mine, which I thought I missed on some of the violin parts, but the bass was perfect.

Moving on to Miles Davis was an interesting experience as I had just listened to this on my system before I left for Boston. I love how my system presents Kind of Blue, the cymbal energy, the definition of the bass and the piano. But Peter system excels and beats my system is two areas: piano reproduction and the presentation of the acoustic bass. I believe that it excels in these two areas because of the effortless S2 compression driver and the horn bass, piano and stand-up acoustic bass are both percussive instruments in jazz. This system sounds real (natural) and delivers the presence of a live jazz club. Horn presentation was also spot on, benefiting from the outstanding decay of the Lamm based system.

Finally, we listened to Pink Floyd’s Dark Side of the moon. I was eager to hear this as it was such a big disappointment the last time I heard it at Peter’s house. I’m just going to cut to the chase: this was the BEST reproduction of Dark Side I’ve ever heard on a stereo. We cranked this up very loud and we were not disappointed. From the huge bass rush at the beginning of the album, to the vocal solo in the Great Gig in the Sky, we were treated to fantastic effortless sound. No strain, no compression, no harshness, just music. This system plays vocals like I have never heard in my life. I turned to Peter and said: “you have now treated me to the worst, and now the best playback of Dark Side I’ve ever heard.” And dare I say, Ian was there with me too.

In closing this was one of the best playback systems I’ve ever heard. It shares similarities with all Lamm systems I’ve loved, but it also had a magic that I think the Vitavox’s deliver. Although I didn't have a definitive frequency test, I believe that system does not go much below 50 hz and much above 14 khz. Between these frequency ranges it was simply the finest system I’ve experienced. Could you get a subwoofer? Maybe, but how could you match the effortless and realistic bass that the corner horn delivers? Could you get a super tweeter? Maybe, but how could you match the resolution of the famous S2 compression driver?
 

bonzo75

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Nice write up Jeffery, how do you contrast this to the Westminster you have heard? I don't mean on an attribute by attribute basis but to overall sit back and listen to classical, jazz, and rock for long hours
 

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