Natural Sound

ddk

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May 18, 2013
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I had the pleasure of visiting PeterA’s system last week for a listening session with the added of bonus of meeting MadFloyd for the first time. We had a great listening session and went to lunch in the beautiful Marblehead harbor.

I had visited Peter several years before to hear the Magico and Pass Labs system. I really enjoyed this system and thought it was the best Magico system I had heard. During the Magico/Pass session we listened to classical, small combo jazz, singer/songwriter and finished off with Pink Floyd. Where the Magico/Pass system utterly failed was Pink Floyd’s Dark Side of the Moon. From the very first “rush” of sound at the beginning, it lacked scale, sound stage and was undynamic. I concluded that if you listened to choral music, small combo jazz and singer/songwriter music the system was great. For large symphonies or rock, it was not convincing enough for my tastes.

Three years ago, Peter came to Los Angeles with his daughter to visit colleges and during that visit he visited a few audio systems with Ron. He came over to hear my system, which consists of all Lamm playback and custom JBL horn speakers made by PBN Audio with four paper 15’s. One of the first records I played was Dark Side, I wanted to demonstrate the scale that my system could produce. Also, I wanted him to hear the magic that Lamm brings to any system. He seemed relatively impressed with the system, especially with the playback of Dark Side. I did also tell him that my audio gurus in Seattle used Lamm and vintage speakers and were following the advice of DDK and Rommy the Cat. I’m not saying I’m responsible for were Peter ended up with his system or visiting DDK, just that my system might have been a data point for him along the journey.

Ian, Peter and I listened to several pieces of music including:
  • Mozart quartet (Grameaux)
  • Rimsky Korsakov Scheherazade (Reiner)
  • Miles Davis Kind of Blue
  • Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon
We started with a Mozart string quartet. Peter started spinning the record on his flawless Micro Seiki 8000 Mk2 (I’ve seen a few but never one so clean) with the VDH and SME 3012R. I was immediately struck by the presence of the strings in the room and that resolution. You could hear the individual instruments, but they blended perfectly and did not call attention to themselves, just like live classical sounds to my ears. At first the sound seemed to come from the speakers, which is different from my system where this image is tightly in the center and slightly behind the speakers. But once I closed my eyes, the image did materialize in front of me. I had to “retrain” my brain to be less analytical and let the sound flow into the room. Zero strain, zero compression, just pure music.

We listened to the final movement of Scheherazade and increased the volume. This was a real treat as the flow of the system really allowed the music to present itself. Again, we were treated to full range and glorious sounding music, nothing calls attention to itself, the music just flows. The system has less treble energy than mine, which I thought I missed on some of the violin parts, but the bass was perfect.

Moving on to Miles Davis was an interesting experience as I had just listened to this on my system before I left for Boston. I love how my system presents Kind of Blue, the cymbal energy, the definition of the bass and the piano. But Peter system excels and beats my system is two areas: piano reproduction and the presentation of the acoustic bass. I believe that it excels in these two areas because of the effortless S2 compression driver and the horn bass, piano and stand-up acoustic bass are both percussive instruments in jazz. This system sounds real (natural) and delivers the presence of a live jazz club. Horn presentation was also spot on, benefiting from the outstanding decay of the Lamm based system.

Finally, we listened to Pink Floyd’s Dark Side of the moon. I was eager to hear this as it was such a big disappointment the last time I heard it at Peter’s house. I’m just going to cut to the chase: this was the BEST reproduction of Dark Side I’ve ever heard on a stereo. We cranked this up very loud and we were not disappointed. From the huge bass rush at the beginning of the album, to the vocal solo in the Great Gig in the Sky, we were treated to fantastic effortless sound. No strain, no compression, no harshness, just music. This system plays vocals like I have never heard in my life. I turned to Peter and said: “you have now treated me to the worst, and now the best playback of Dark Side I’ve ever heard.” And dare I say, Ian was there with me too.

In closing this was one of the best playback systems I’ve ever heard. It shares similarities with all Lamm systems I’ve loved, but it also had a magic that I think the Vitavox’s deliver. Although I didn't have a definitive frequency test, I believe that system does not go much below 50 hz and much above 14 khz. Between these frequency ranges it was simply the finest system I’ve experienced. Could you get a subwoofer? Maybe, but how could you match the effortless and realistic bass that the corner horn delivers? Could you get a super tweeter? Maybe, but how could you match the resolution of the famous S2 compression driver?
Sounds like a very nice time Jeff! Actually the Vitavoxs go straight down to 35hz and in room measure even lower, top end is somewhere in the 16-18khz range. We’re all used to some degree of air on top as if everything comes with an air note it took me many years to find cables that do not add this air note and upon first hearing one might think that the top end is rolled off. You need to spend a couple of days with speakers to realize that they’re not lacking extension but don’t have the air notes which is a cable artifact.

david
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
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I had the pleasure of visiting PeterA’s system last week for a listening session with the added of bonus of meeting MadFloyd for the first time. We had a great listening session and went to lunch in the beautiful Marblehead harbor.

I had visited Peter several years before to hear the Magico and Pass Labs system. I really enjoyed this system and thought it was the best Magico system I had heard. During the Magico/Pass session we listened to classical, small combo jazz, singer/songwriter and finished off with Pink Floyd. Where the Magico/Pass system utterly failed was Pink Floyd’s Dark Side of the Moon. From the very first “rush” of sound at the beginning, it lacked scale, sound stage and was undynamic. I concluded that if you listened to choral music, small combo jazz and singer/songwriter music the system was great. For large symphonies or rock, it was not convincing enough for my tastes.

Three years ago, Peter came to Los Angeles with his daughter to visit colleges and during that visit he visited a few audio systems with Ron. He came over to hear my system, which consists of all Lamm playback and custom JBL horn speakers made by PBN Audio with four paper 15’s. One of the first records I played was Dark Side, I wanted to demonstrate the scale that my system could produce. Also, I wanted him to hear the magic that Lamm brings to any system. He seemed relatively impressed with the system, especially with the playback of Dark Side. I did also tell him that my audio gurus in Seattle used Lamm and vintage speakers and were following the advice of DDK and Rommy the Cat. I’m not saying I’m responsible for were Peter ended up with his system or visiting DDK, just that my system might have been a data point for him along the journey.

Ian, Peter and I listened to several pieces of music including:
  • Mozart quartet (Grameaux)
  • Rimsky Korsakov Scheherazade (Reiner)
  • Miles Davis Kind of Blue
  • Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon
We started with a Mozart string quartet. Peter started spinning the record on his flawless Micro Seiki 8000 Mk2 (I’ve seen a few but never one so clean) with the VDH and SME 3012R. I was immediately struck by the presence of the strings in the room and that resolution. You could hear the individual instruments, but they blended perfectly and did not call attention to themselves, just like live classical sounds to my ears. At first the sound seemed to come from the speakers, which is different from my system where this image is tightly in the center and slightly behind the speakers. But once I closed my eyes, the image did materialize in front of me. I had to “retrain” my brain to be less analytical and let the sound flow into the room. Zero strain, zero compression, just pure music.

We listened to the final movement of Scheherazade and increased the volume. This was a real treat as the flow of the system really allowed the music to present itself. Again, we were treated to full range and glorious sounding music, nothing calls attention to itself, the music just flows. The system has less treble energy than mine, which I thought I missed on some of the violin parts, but the bass was perfect.

Moving on to Miles Davis was an interesting experience as I had just listened to this on my system before I left for Boston. I love how my system presents Kind of Blue, the cymbal energy, the definition of the bass and the piano. But Peter system excels and beats my system is two areas: piano reproduction and the presentation of the acoustic bass. I believe that it excels in these two areas because of the effortless S2 compression driver and the horn bass, piano and stand-up acoustic bass are both percussive instruments in jazz. This system sounds real (natural) and delivers the presence of a live jazz club. Horn presentation was also spot on, benefiting from the outstanding decay of the Lamm based system.

Finally, we listened to Pink Floyd’s Dark Side of the moon. I was eager to hear this as it was such a big disappointment the last time I heard it at Peter’s house. I’m just going to cut to the chase: this was the BEST reproduction of Dark Side I’ve ever heard on a stereo. We cranked this up very loud and we were not disappointed. From the huge bass rush at the beginning of the album, to the vocal solo in the Great Gig in the Sky, we were treated to fantastic effortless sound. No strain, no compression, no harshness, just music. This system plays vocals like I have never heard in my life. I turned to Peter and said: “you have now treated me to the worst, and now the best playback of Dark Side I’ve ever heard.” And dare I say, Ian was there with me too.

In closing this was one of the best playback systems I’ve ever heard. It shares similarities with all Lamm systems I’ve loved, but it also had a magic that I think the Vitavox’s deliver. Although I didn't have a definitive frequency test, I believe that system does not go much below 50 hz and much above 14 khz. Between these frequency ranges it was simply the finest system I’ve experienced. Could you get a subwoofer? Maybe, but how could you match the effortless and realistic bass that the corner horn delivers? Could you get a super tweeter? Maybe, but how could you match the resolution of the famous S2 compression driver?
Given the scarcity of Vitavoxes, I think a JBL Hartsfield (original or repro) with SET in the 20 watt range will also be convincing. With Hartfield though, the original 375 driver needs some help above 10khz...it is not as extended as the S2. Maybe a repro with a Be diaphragm could go higher? Keep in mind that the S2 is with and Al diaphragm...I am not convinced Be is always the best sounding. You were looking into this maybe it’s time to plunge in? I know if I had the space I would have at least one system based on a top notch corner horn.
 

tima

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Mar 3, 2014
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In closing this was one of the best playback systems I’ve ever heard. It shares similarities with all Lamm systems I’ve loved, but it also had a magic that I think the Vitavox’s deliver.

What a delightful write-up Jeffrey - nice job! Perhaps the best I've read yet of Peter's Micro-Seiki/Lamm/Vitavox system.

Piano yes, but I had never heard of a bass referred to as a percussive instrument. Very interesting.

And congrats on 14kHz. :)
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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What a delightful write-up Jeffrey - nice job! Perhaps the best I've read yet of Peter's Micro-Seiki/Lamm/Vitavox system.

Piano yes, but I had never heard of a bass referred to as a percussive instrument. Very interesting.

And congrats on 14kHz. :)
Listen to Nik Baertsch and you will hear percussive piano...after all it is hammers hitting strings...
 

tima

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Mar 3, 2014
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Listen to Nik Baertsch and you will hear percussive piano...after all it is hammers hitting strings...

Yes it is. Piano is definitely a percussion instrument - I used to play. Alas, piano space gave way to audio space - not enough room for both.

Listen to Bartók's 1st or 2nd Piano Concerto, especially the 1st. When he conducted it he would put the percussion instruments around the piano at the front of the stage! Pretty wild stuff.

"The piano becomes a machine, the orchestra a machine workshop, and all in the service of brutal, crudely materialistic music." Here is Bartók’s dissonant interpretation of a feral Hungarian dance.

Bartok Piano Concerto 1 Geza Anda DG SLPM138708 3.jpg

 

jeff1225

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Nice write up Jeffery, how do you contrast this to the Westminster you have heard? I don't mean on an attribute by attribute basis but to overall sit back and listen to classical, jazz, and rock for long hours
The sound of the Vitavox system is in the same direction of the Westminster, both systems that I could listen to for hours, without any listening fatigue. The Westies are more brute force and the Vitavox is more sophisticated.
 

jeff1225

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Jan 29, 2012
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What a delightful write-up Jeffrey - nice job! Perhaps the best I've read yet of Peter's Micro-Seiki/Lamm/Vitavox system.

Piano yes, but I had never heard of a bass referred to as a percussive instrument. Very interesting.

And congrats on 14kHz. :)
Thank you Tima, that is high praise coming form you. My idea regarding stand up bass being a percussive instrument comes from our high school jazz band teacher, he always wanted our bass player to aggressively pluck the strings so you could hear them bounce off the fretboard.
 
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jeff1225

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Given the scarcity of Vitavoxes, I think a JBL Hartsfield (original or repro) with SET in the 20 watt range will also be convincing. With Hartfield though, the original 375 driver needs some help above 10khz...it is not as extended as the S2. Maybe a repro with a Be diaphragm could go higher? Keep in mind that the S2 is with and Al diaphragm...I am not convinced Be is always the best sounding. You were looking into this maybe it’s time to plunge in? I know if I had the space I would have at least one system based on a top notch corner horn.
A corner horn is on the table for the new room that's in it's final permitting phase. Based on my listening yesterday, Lamm SET and Vitavox's are on the radar for sure. I'd like to hear a pair of Hartsfields as well.
 

ddk

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A corner horn is on the table for the new room that's in it's final permitting phase. Based on my listening yesterday, Lamm SET and Vitavox's are on the radar for sure. I'd like to hear a pair of Hartsfields as well.
Hartsfields are beautiful sounding speakers with a very different flavor from the Vitavox, can’t go wrong with either choice as long as the speakers are in original condition.

david
 

jeff1225

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Sounds like a very nice time Jeff! Actually the Vitavoxs go straight down to 35hz and in room measure even lower, top end is somewhere in the 16-18khz range. We’re all used to some degree of air on top as if everything comes with an air note it took me many years to find cables that do not add this air note and upon first hearing one might think that the top end is rolled off. You need to spend a couple of days with speakers to realize that they’re not lacking extension but don’t have the air notes which is a cable artifact.

david
I agree 2 hours was not enough time with the system. The frequency range of the system was an observation based on listening to Kind of Blue and the presentation of the ride cymbal. I did hear the wooden drum stick hit the cymbal, the resolution of this sound was beyond the capability of my system. In all, it was a different presentation than my system but it was perhaps superior due to the S2's ability to handle the entire range of Cannonball's and Coltrane's horns.
 

bonzo75

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Jbl 375 be with LE 85 on top sounds quite good. Have heard it

The JBL 375 is the very first JBL big-format compression driver. Because of the vintage look and history, they sell for totally ridiculous prices on eBay etc.
Except for the finish (the first ones were in gray), they are 100% identical to the JBL 2440 (pro numbering). They originally came with aluminium diaphragms, and were good to up to about 8-9 kHz.

The latest Version of JBL two.inch drivers, is the 2450H/J: it has neodymium magnet and a much-improved phaseplug. Those who have compared say it sounds better then the 375(given identical diaphragms in both).
 

Ron Resnick

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I had the pleasure of visiting PeterA’s system last week for a listening session with the added of bonus of meeting MadFloyd for the first time. We had a great listening session and went to lunch in the beautiful Marblehead harbor.

I had visited Peter several years before to hear the Magico and Pass Labs system. I really enjoyed this system and thought it was the best Magico system I had heard. During the Magico/Pass session we listened to classical, small combo jazz, singer/songwriter and finished off with Pink Floyd. Where the Magico/Pass system utterly failed was Pink Floyd’s Dark Side of the Moon. From the very first “rush” of sound at the beginning, it lacked scale, sound stage and was undynamic. I concluded that if you listened to choral music, small combo jazz and singer/songwriter music the system was great. For large symphonies or rock, it was not convincing enough for my tastes.

Three years ago, Peter came to Los Angeles with his daughter to visit colleges and during that visit he visited a few audio systems with Ron. He came over to hear my system, which consists of all Lamm playback and custom JBL horn speakers made by PBN Audio with four paper 15’s. One of the first records I played was Dark Side, I wanted to demonstrate the scale that my system could produce. Also, I wanted him to hear the magic that Lamm brings to any system. He seemed relatively impressed with the system, especially with the playback of Dark Side. I did also tell him that my audio gurus in Seattle used Lamm and vintage speakers and were following the advice of DDK and Rommy the Cat. I’m not saying I’m responsible for were Peter ended up with his system or visiting DDK, just that my system might have been a data point for him along the journey.

Ian, Peter and I listened to several pieces of music including:
  • Mozart quartet (Grameaux)
  • Rimsky Korsakov Scheherazade (Reiner)
  • Miles Davis Kind of Blue
  • Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon
We started with a Mozart string quartet. Peter started spinning the record on his flawless Micro Seiki 8000 Mk2 (I’ve seen a few but never one so clean) with the VDH and SME 3012R. I was immediately struck by the presence of the strings in the room and that resolution. You could hear the individual instruments, but they blended perfectly and did not call attention to themselves, just like live classical sounds to my ears. At first the sound seemed to come from the speakers, which is different from my system where this image is tightly in the center and slightly behind the speakers. But once I closed my eyes, the image did materialize in front of me. I had to “retrain” my brain to be less analytical and let the sound flow into the room. Zero strain, zero compression, just pure music.

We listened to the final movement of Scheherazade and increased the volume. This was a real treat as the flow of the system really allowed the music to present itself. Again, we were treated to full range and glorious sounding music, nothing calls attention to itself, the music just flows. The system has less treble energy than mine, which I thought I missed on some of the violin parts, but the bass was perfect.

Moving on to Miles Davis was an interesting experience as I had just listened to this on my system before I left for Boston. I love how my system presents Kind of Blue, the cymbal energy, the definition of the bass and the piano. But Peter system excels and beats my system is two areas: piano reproduction and the presentation of the acoustic bass. I believe that it excels in these two areas because of the effortless S2 compression driver and the horn bass, piano and stand-up acoustic bass are both percussive instruments in jazz. This system sounds real (natural) and delivers the presence of a live jazz club. Horn presentation was also spot on, benefiting from the outstanding decay of the Lamm based system.

Finally, we listened to Pink Floyd’s Dark Side of the moon. I was eager to hear this as it was such a big disappointment the last time I heard it at Peter’s house. I’m just going to cut to the chase: this was the BEST reproduction of Dark Side I’ve ever heard on a stereo. We cranked this up very loud and we were not disappointed. From the huge bass rush at the beginning of the album, to the vocal solo in the Great Gig in the Sky, we were treated to fantastic effortless sound. No strain, no compression, no harshness, just music. This system plays vocals like I have never heard in my life. I turned to Peter and said: “you have now treated me to the worst, and now the best playback of Dark Side I’ve ever heard.” And dare I say, Ian was there with me too.

In closing this was one of the best playback systems I’ve ever heard. It shares similarities with all Lamm systems I’ve loved, but it also had a magic that I think the Vitavox’s deliver. Although I didn't have a definitive frequency test, I believe that system does not go much below 50 hz and much above 14 khz. Between these frequency ranges it was simply the finest system I’ve experienced. Could you get a subwoofer? Maybe, but how could you match the effortless and realistic bass that the corner horn delivers? Could you get a super tweeter? Maybe, but how could you match the resolution of the famous S2 compression driver?

Thank you, Jeff, for this eloquent and insightful report! I now have a better understanding of how Peter's system sounds!

And the comparison to the Westminsters helps me triangulate further.

I am also glad you got to meet Ian! Very fun!
 
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jeff1225

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I forgot to mention that I dropped off an Ortofon SPU 85 for Peter's listening pleasure, I'm looking forward to his report back on the sound. And I know you like the A95 better @bonzo75, but you are wrong :cool:

1624797482489.png
 
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ddk

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I agree 2 hours was not enough time with the system. The frequency range of the system was an observation based on listening to Kind of Blue and the presentation of the ride cymbal. I did hear the wooden drum stick hit the cymbal, the resolution of this sound was beyond the capability of my system. In all, it was a different presentation than my system but it was perhaps superior due to the S2's ability to handle the entire range of Cannonball's and Coltrane's horns.
There are other components involved in what you heard too, his turntable is in the beyond category and there’s the LL1 you were listening through. The speakers are wonderful but so is every other component of Peter’s system.


I forgot to mention that I dropped off an Ortofon SPU 85 for Peter's listening pleasure, I'm looking forward to his report back on the sound. And I know you like the A95 better @bonzo75, but you are wrong

View attachment 79560
Love mine too !

david
 
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bonzo75

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I forgot to mention that I dropped off an Ortofon SPU 85 for Peter's listening pleasure, I'm looking forward to his report back on the sound. And I know you like the A95 better @bonzo75, but you are wrong :cool:

View attachment 79560

At Gian's, on an all CH system, The A95 and A90 were preferred over the A85. The 95 had the most detail, while the 90 seemed a good mix of the detail of the A95 and the flow of the old SPUs. Additionally we had also tried synergy and gold reference.

I have done an A95 vs A85 compare on a Schick arm at silvercore in a totally different system! This was SETs horns. A95 better by quite a margin. Additionally I get to listen to SPU locally a lot. SPU have a good flow, body, and tone, especially suits piano, brass; they are not that good for violin and orchestra so with that I prefer the most detailed among them as I am losing important details and violin nuance otherwise. I also prefer them on FR over SME 3012r for the energy
 
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tima

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Mar 3, 2014
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A corner horn is on the table for the new room that's in it's final permitting phase. Based on my listening yesterday, Lamm SET and Vitavox's are on the radar for sure. I'd like to hear a pair of Hartsfields as well.

This is interesting. With your enthusiasm for the PBN units I had not known about consideration of new speakers - corner horns at that. Could make for an interesting thread. (hint hint)
 

bonzo75

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This is interesting. With your enthusiasm for the PBN units I had not known about consideration of new speakers - corner horns at that. Could make for an interesting thread. (hint hint)

Should it not be in natural sound thread?
 

jeff1225

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There are other components involved in what you heard too, his turntable is in the beyond category and there’s the L1 you were listening through. The speakers are wonderful but so is every other component of Peter’s system.



Love mine too !

david
Hopefully I'm not giving short shrift to the Lamm's or the Micro Seiki 8000, they are integral to the success of the system. My question to you David:

1. How much of the resolution is from the LL1 preamp?
2. How much LL1 do I get from my LL2.1?
 

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