Natural Sound

[tima]

Should it not be in natural sound thread?

Perhaps, but this is Peter's system thread - his call. I was thinking more along the lines of Jeffrey's investigations and considerations wrt to his own system.

 

[ddk]

At Gian's, on an all CH system, The A95 and A90 were preferred over the A85. The 95 had the most detail, while the 90 seemed a good mix of the detail of the A95 and the flow of the old SPUs. Additionally we had also tried synergy and gold reference.

I have done an A95 vs A85 compare on a Schick arm at silvercore in a totally different system! This was SETs horns. A95 better by quite a margin. Additionally I get to listen to SPU locally a lot. SPU have a good flow and tone, especially suits piano, brass; they are not that good for violin and orchestra so with that I prefer the most detailed among them as I am losing important details and violin nuance otherwise. I also prefer them on FR over SME 3012r for the energy

Interesting how impressions change based on different setups. I have all the anniversary SPUs and they’re all very different. None sound like an SPU either, they have their own unique flavors and that’s their attraction. The 85 has heft, a little dark but wonderful on small bands and solo instruments specially strings, very rich sound. The 95 is much more spacious in comparison, great for orchestral music that you like with lovely sweetness on strings but a more distant presentation than the intimate 85. I’m not a fan of FR tonearms the bass doesn’t breathe and lacks 3012-Rs nuanced bass. What you call energy I call coloration of FR, it’s always punching even when it shouldn’t.

david

 

[bonzo75]

I would love to listen to the SPU century and 100

 

[bonzo75]

I like a bit distant presentation

 

[assessor43]

It has been a while since I have heard corner horns but from reading Jeffreys comments it does take me back to when I heard Klipshorns powered by a modest MC275. The size and scale of an orchestra was really convincing and I am sure Peters system easily bests that one. Great write-up on this fantastic system.

 

[Al M.]

I absolutely love my PBN speakers, but I am and audiophile and I have problems......

Hehe. I absolutely love my monitor/subwoofer combo, I am still an audiophile and despite that don't have problems anymore..... So I'll keep my speaker system.

Every system has compromises, including mine, and I know well both not just the strengths, but also the weaknesses of mine. However, I have yet to hear a system that overall would satisfy my personal taste more than what I already have. Certainly not at a price and in a house/room that I can afford.

But of course, all that is personal, including where I am in the audiophile journey.

 

[Al M.]

I like a bit distant presentation

Depends. For example, I like it on some orchestral or large choir music (and I really want to hear a large venue when recorded), but I like intimate small scale music really intimate and up close.

 

[bonzo75]

Depends. For example, I like it on some orchestral or large choir music (and I really want to hear a large venue when recorded), but I like intimate music really intimate and up close.

I guess you just turn up and down the leading edge to adjust that

 

[PeterA]

Sounds like a very nice time Jeff! Actually the Vitavoxs go straight down to 35hz and in room measure even lower, top end is somewhere in the 16-18khz range. We’re all used to some degree of air on top as if everything comes with an air note it took me many years to find cables that do not add this air note and upon first hearing one might think that the top end is rolled off. You need to spend a couple of days with speakers to realize that they’re not lacking extension but don’t have the air notes which is a cable artifact.

david

David demonstrated some cables for me that do indeed add this top end "air" onto the sound. This was with the Vitavoxs in Utah. It was an instantly recognizable sound that I have heard in many hifi systems. It was on every recording. It was an overlayed effect. My Transparent cables did this, but also others I have heard in my system and elsewhere.

Once I heard it with and without when he switched cables back to what I now use in my system, it was clear that this "air" is an artifact and artificial. I now hear air on some recordings and not others, just like with live music depending on venue and circumstances. This was yet another of David's clear demonstrations of what "Natural Sound" means.

I think it will be quite a while before I truly come to realize the capabilities of this new system. It takes time living with it listening to one's own familiar system in a relaxed state. This system is presenting a new and nuanced view into my LPs, and one that will take a while to fully appreciate and grasp. It is only getting better with time and exposure.

 

[Al M.]

I guess you just turn up and down the leading edge to adjust that

Hehe, how? A system should portray different kinds of transient and spatial information from diverse recordings in a sufficiently differentiated manner. This will automatically take care of a varied spectrum between intimate and more distant and/or spacious presentations, depending on the recording. Of course, setup in the room and the room itself need to allow for that as well.

On different systems, that spectrum will not always be the same between its endpoints of most intimate to most distant. Yet on competent systems it will be broad enough regardless.

 

[PeterA]

I think the important thing when discussing listening perspective is that the system needs to be transparent enough to present the perspective as recorded and then it needs to be balanced so the entire frequency spectrum, and not just the high frequencies and leading edge transients draw one's attention to them. This plus a balanced presentation of the entire note, beginning to end, is necessary for a convincing portrayal of listener distance to the musicians. This sense of balance combined with a high level of resolution or information is what gives one an accurate representation of the perspective captured on the recording.

Different systems will present this listening distance "spectrum" differently with different system endpoints, but the goal should be to maximize those endpoints and allow the system sound to disappear or not be noticeable. This is easier said than done, no doubt.

 

[PeterA]

I had the pleasure of visiting PeterA’s system last week for a listening session with the added of bonus of meeting MadFloyd for the first time. We had a great listening session and went to lunch in the beautiful Marblehead harbor.

I had visited Peter several years before to hear the Magico and Pass Labs system. I really enjoyed this system and thought it was the best Magico system I had heard. During the Magico/Pass session we listened to classical, small combo jazz, singer/songwriter and finished off with Pink Floyd. Where the Magico/Pass system utterly failed was Pink Floyd’s Dark Side of the Moon. From the very first “rush” of sound at the beginning, it lacked scale, sound stage and was undynamic. I concluded that if you listened to choral music, small combo jazz and singer/songwriter music the system was great. For large symphonies or rock, it was not convincing enough for my tastes.

Three years ago, Peter came to Los Angeles with his daughter to visit colleges and during that visit he visited a few audio systems with Ron. He came over to hear my system, which consists of all Lamm playback and custom JBL horn speakers made by PBN Audio with four paper 15’s. One of the first records I played was Dark Side, I wanted to demonstrate the scale that my system could produce. Also, I wanted him to hear the magic that Lamm brings to any system. He seemed relatively impressed with the system, especially with the playback of Dark Side. I did also tell him that my audio gurus in Seattle used Lamm and vintage speakers and were following the advice of DDK and Rommy the Cat. I’m not saying I’m responsible for were Peter ended up with his system or visiting DDK, just that my system might have been a data point for him along the journey.

Ian, Peter and I listened to several pieces of music including:

• Mozart quartet (Grameaux)
• Rimsky Korsakov Scheherazade (Reiner)
• Miles Davis Kind of Blue
• Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon

We started with a Mozart string quartet. Peter started spinning the record on his flawless Micro Seiki 8000 Mk2 (I’ve seen a few but never one so clean) with the VDH and SME 3012R. I was immediately struck by the presence of the strings in the room and that resolution. You could hear the individual instruments, but they blended perfectly and did not call attention to themselves, just like live classical sounds to my ears. At first the sound seemed to come from the speakers, which is different from my system where this image is tightly in the center and slightly behind the speakers. But once I closed my eyes, the image did materialize in front of me. I had to “retrain” my brain to be less analytical and let the sound flow into the room. Zero strain, zero compression, just pure music.

We listened to the final movement of Scheherazade and increased the volume. This was a real treat as the flow of the system really allowed the music to present itself. Again, we were treated to full range and glorious sounding music, nothing calls attention to itself, the music just flows. The system has less treble energy than mine, which I thought I missed on some of the violin parts, but the bass was perfect.

Moving on to Miles Davis was an interesting experience as I had just listened to this on my system before I left for Boston. I love how my system presents Kind of Blue, the cymbal energy, the definition of the bass and the piano. But Peter system excels and beats my system is two areas: piano reproduction and the presentation of the acoustic bass. I believe that it excels in these two areas because of the effortless S2 compression driver and the horn bass, piano and stand-up acoustic bass are both percussive instruments in jazz. This system sounds real (natural) and delivers the presence of a live jazz club. Horn presentation was also spot on, benefiting from the outstanding decay of the Lamm based system.

Finally, we listened to Pink Floyd’s Dark Side of the moon. I was eager to hear this as it was such a big disappointment the last time I heard it at Peter’s house. I’m just going to cut to the chase: this was the BEST reproduction of Dark Side I’ve ever heard on a stereo. We cranked this up very loud and we were not disappointed. From the huge bass rush at the beginning of the album, to the vocal solo in the Great Gig in the Sky, we were treated to fantastic effortless sound. No strain, no compression, no harshness, just music. This system plays vocals like I have never heard in my life. I turned to Peter and said: “you have now treated me to the worst, and now the best playback of Dark Side I’ve ever heard.” And dare I say, Ian was there with me too.

In closing this was one of the best playback systems I’ve ever heard. It shares similarities with all Lamm systems I’ve loved, but it also had a magic that I think the Vitavox’s deliver. Although I didn't have a definitive frequency test, I believe that system does not go much below 50 hz and much above 14 khz. Between these frequency ranges it was simply the finest system I’ve experienced. Could you get a subwoofer? Maybe, but how could you match the effortless and realistic bass that the corner horn delivers? Could you get a super tweeter? Maybe, but how could you match the resolution of the famous S2 compression driver?

Jeff, this is a very well written and somewhat different perspective on the sound of my system. I appreciate you taking the time to put your thoughts down and for sharing them in this thread.

More importantly, I really enjoyed your brief visit and giving you the opportunity to meet my good friend Ian (Madfloyd). It was a joy to share some listening time again with the two of you and to then have a good lunch at our local harbor-side restaurant. I want to also thank you for bringing your Ortofon SPU 85. I will put that on the back arm for some fun comparisons to the vdH. I am really looking forward to that.

Your comment about "retraining" your ears is an interesting one that I have discussed with Ian before. Of the many system I have heard over the years, aside from those in Utah, your system is I think the most similar sounding to my new system. Of course the Lamm gear is there, but also the speakers share these big 15" paper woofers and are efficient. This creates the sense of ease and flow that you heard here and I heard from your system, plus the impact and power. I too was struck by the bass quality from your system when I heard it: so much information and so natural sounding. The presentation of our systems is somewhat different, but there are plenty of similarities. I am sure it did not take long for you to adjust your ears.

One of the other comments you made was that you did not feel pinned to the center location and that the sound was actually not bad as you moved around the room. This is one of the observations I made in my list of characteristics of Natural Sound. Another is the ability for the system to play soft to loud. This is important as it allows one to find the right listening volume for the scale of the presentation on the recording. This system has such low distortion that I can play it very loudly and it does not break down. I can also enjoy it much lower for certain music and moods and still feel engaged. The old system did not have such versatility and needed some volume to come alive.

You selected three LPs which you know quite well plus the Mozart strings I had in the room and played first. One thing I noticed is that you seemed to be quite comfortable and relaxed, even when the music was quite loud during Scheherazad and DSOTM. We chatted and it was actually like a bunch of non audiophiles listening to tunes and not analyzing stuff. I think this is how we both seem to enjoy our listening. When things sound right, one relaxes and is not searching for the hifi attributes that draw attention to themselves. I have found that my listening style has changed with this new system. It started a couple of years ago with my experiments, and now I am fully there. Relaxation and music and good times with friends.

Here is a photo of the LP with the Mozart strings. I am finding that the listening window is expanding and I enjoy a much larger variety of my recordings, another characteristic on my list describing "Natural Sound".

Thanks so much for making the effort to visit. Next time you are in the Boston area, you will see the new rack and any improvements that David achieves in fine tuning. Until then unless I visit Southern California to hear your system in the new room. Imagining if you will have some vintage horns, in the corners or not, is exciting.

 

[morricab]

Yes it is. Piano is definitely a percussion instrument - I used to play. Alas, piano space gave way to audio space - not enough room for both.

Listen to Bartók's 1st or 2nd Piano Concerto, especially the 1st. When he conducted it he would put the percussion instruments around the piano at the front of the stage! Pretty wild stuff.

"The piano becomes a machine, the orchestra a machine workshop, and all in the service of brutal, crudely materialistic music." Here is Bartók’s dissonant interpretation of a feral Hungarian dance.

View attachment 79557

Bartók - Concerto for Piano and Orchestra No. 1, Rhapsody for Piano and Orchestra, Op. 1, Bartók - Concertos for Piano and Orchestra Nos. 2 and 3 - The Audio Beat - www.TheAudioBeat.com

read audio reviews, ratings, and user opinions on audio equipment before you buy an audio system

www.theaudiobeat.com

I actually misread your post...you were saying you didn’t think of bass as a percussive instrument. Slap bass is pretty popular in rock and jazz and is definitely percussive.

 

[morricab]

Hehe. I absolutely love my monitor/subwoofer combo, I am still an audiophile and despite that don't have problems anymore..... So I'll keep my speaker system.

Every system has compromises, including mine, and I know well both not just the strengths, but also the weaknesses of mine. However, I have yet to hear a system that overall would satisfy my personal taste more than what I already have. Certainly not at a price and in a house/room that I can afford.

But of course, all that is personal, including where I am in the audiophile journey.

So, does this mean you are not a convert?

 

[Lagonda]

So, does this mean you are not a convert?

I don't think Al will ever admit that he enjoys a system more than his own ! Especially to himself ! It's a defense mechanism !

 

[spiritofmusic]

I'll defend my Zus all day long, but the right horns take you somewhere else totally. Mile High Club or idyllic beach. Too bad Al hasn't had that pleasure.

 

[Al M.]

I don't think Al will ever admit that he enjoys a system more than his own ! Especially to himself ! It's a defense mechanism !

Haha, that's funny. I like the reproduction of some music definitely better on other systems than on mine!!

Overall though, according to my own very personal tastes and priorities of reproduction I still prefer mine on average across the spectrum of all genres of music, which is not to claim that it is objectively the best. It emphatically isn't. It does have some weaknesses that I chose to live with. And it clearly cannot fill a large room.

Yet had I a lot more money and a bigger room, I would buy another system. Or preferably, I would have two systems, one for large scale music and another for the rest -- in two different sized rooms. In my experience, there is not a single system that does it all in an ideal manner. If there is one, I haven't heard it yet.

But I don't think there is one, just like there isn't a single concert venue equally suited to each type of live music. It is no coincidence that many venues for classical music have two halls, a large hall for symphonic music, and a smaller hall for chamber music.

 

[Al M.]

So, does this mean you are not a convert?

A convert to what?

 

[Al M.]

I'll defend my Zus all day long, but the right horns take you somewhere else totally. Mile High Club or idyllic beach. Too bad Al hasn't had that pleasure.

I certainly want more exposure to other types of systems. Yet I cannot guarantee that I will like systems that you are in awe of as much as you do, even though perhaps I will. There is just too much personal taste involved in this hobby and everyone cherishes different aspects of a listening experience.

What is relaxing to one person is boring to another. What is exciting to one person is discomforting or annoying to another. That's just the way it is, and there is nothing wrong with any of it.

Therefore there is no reason to assume that everyone will have the same type of "epiphany" upon hearing certain systems, and there is nothing wrong with that either. Everyone is different, and because of that, there can be no system that is objectively best to all. Those who think there can be a universal "objective best" are deluding themselves about human nature and the diversity of individual human experience and perception.

They are indiscriminately projecting their own personal taste and perceptions onto others. We see too much of that all the time on WBF, too.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Sure Al. Keep searching Lol.