Negative show report posts... enough is enough.
- Thread starter Peter Breuninger
- Start date
I don't think a new venue would help the situation much. So you get good power. How much of a difference does that make? It is not like someone is going to custom design acoustic spaces for each setup.
Here is the thing guys (industry guys that is). Life is hard in showing equipment and getting positive feedback. No one says it isn't. But it is immaterial because it runs foul of Amir's second rule of business (first one was that businesses have no obligation to be fair). Your problems are not customer's problems!
Customers look to reviews to help them avoid bad purchases. Nothing is worst than spending a ton of money only to find out someone else knew it was no good. They look to reviews to tell them the zeros. And inversely, the heros. They want the answer. It is not customer's problem that it is hard to get to these answers or even impossible. This is what your customer desires.
I give the same talk to my employees all the time. We recently sourced a bunch of super expensive product from a company and installed them at customer site. One by one they started to fail. The product is from a major, major company. One that you would never expect to put out such faulty product. But faulty product they produced. We did some digging and identified the problem to be that of the manufacture. Right there I stopped the conversation with: what are we doing to do to fix the situation at the customer? That they could care less that this was someone else's issue. They look to us to deliver reliable goods and don't want to hear our sorry story of why we couldn't get there. We better focus on the solution and get it done.
It is a tough thing to live by but it is the right thing. We have to delight our customers. And I don't know how we do that by not talking about bad products, not deliver on the best sound in our demos, etc. People go to great expense and effort to come to these shows and they rightly demand and want the best demo the product can deliver. Likewise, we better let the news get out on forums, good, bad or different. Earlier I quoted the Stereophile negative review of Mark Levinson amp that I actually like. It needed to be said and we better volunteer it.
Now, are we going to be perfect at this? No. But it is our job to get as close as we can. We don't get an "out" by explaining how tough our job is. It is what we get "paid" to do and do well.
Yes, I am sympathetic. I always tell people there is no harder business than audio hardware industry. But we better cry on each other's shoulders and not our customers. Likely they have disposable income for such great products because they didn't ask their customers to sympathize with them.
If you are going to object, let me remind you of my first business rule again: business is not about fairness
.
Here is the thing guys (industry guys that is). Life is hard in showing equipment and getting positive feedback. No one says it isn't. But it is immaterial because it runs foul of Amir's second rule of business (first one was that businesses have no obligation to be fair). Your problems are not customer's problems!
Customers look to reviews to help them avoid bad purchases. Nothing is worst than spending a ton of money only to find out someone else knew it was no good. They look to reviews to tell them the zeros. And inversely, the heros. They want the answer. It is not customer's problem that it is hard to get to these answers or even impossible. This is what your customer desires.
I give the same talk to my employees all the time. We recently sourced a bunch of super expensive product from a company and installed them at customer site. One by one they started to fail. The product is from a major, major company. One that you would never expect to put out such faulty product. But faulty product they produced. We did some digging and identified the problem to be that of the manufacture. Right there I stopped the conversation with: what are we doing to do to fix the situation at the customer? That they could care less that this was someone else's issue. They look to us to deliver reliable goods and don't want to hear our sorry story of why we couldn't get there. We better focus on the solution and get it done.
It is a tough thing to live by but it is the right thing. We have to delight our customers. And I don't know how we do that by not talking about bad products, not deliver on the best sound in our demos, etc. People go to great expense and effort to come to these shows and they rightly demand and want the best demo the product can deliver. Likewise, we better let the news get out on forums, good, bad or different. Earlier I quoted the Stereophile negative review of Mark Levinson amp that I actually like. It needed to be said and we better volunteer it.
Now, are we going to be perfect at this? No. But it is our job to get as close as we can. We don't get an "out" by explaining how tough our job is. It is what we get "paid" to do and do well.
Yes, I am sympathetic. I always tell people there is no harder business than audio hardware industry. But we better cry on each other's shoulders and not our customers. Likely they have disposable income for such great products because they didn't ask their customers to sympathize with them.
If you are going to object, let me remind you of my first business rule again: business is not about fairness
.I don't think a new venue would help the situation much. So you get good power. How much of a difference does that make? It is not like someone is going to custom design acoustic spaces for each setup.
Here is the thing guys (industry guys that is). Life is hard in showing equipment and getting positive feedback. No one says it isn't. But it is immaterial because it runs foul of Amir's second rule of business (first one was that businesses have no obligation to be fair). Your problems are not customer's problems!
Customers look to reviews to help them avoid bad purchases. Nothing is worst than spending a ton of money only to find out someone else knew it was no good. They look to reviews to tell them the zeros. And inversely, the heros. They want the answer. It is not customer's problem that it is hard to get to these answers or even impossible. This is what your customer desires.
I give the same talk to my employees all the time. We recently sourced a bunch of super expensive product from a company and installed them at customer site. One by one they started to fail. The product is from a major, major company. One that you would never expect to put out such faulty product. But faulty product they produced. We did some digging and identified the problem to be that of the manufacture. Right there I stopped the conversation with: what are we doing to do to fix the situation at the customer? That they could care less that this was someone else's issue. They look to us to deliver reliable goods and don't want to hear our sorry story of why we couldn't get there. We better focus on the solution and get it done.
It is a tough thing to live by but it is the right thing. We have to delight our customers. And I don't know how we do that by not talking about bad products, not deliver on the best sound in our demos, etc. People go to great expense and effort to come to these shows and they rightly demand and want the best demo the product can deliver. Likewise, we better let the news get out on forums, good, bad or different. Earlier I quoted the Stereophile negative review of Mark Levinson amp that I actually like. It needed to be said and we better volunteer it.
Now, are we going to be perfect at this? No. But it is our job to get as close as we can. We don't get an "out" by explaining how tough our job is. It is what we get "paid" to do and do well.
Yes, I am sympathetic. I always tell people there is no harder business than audio hardware industry. But we better cry on each other's shoulders and not our customers. Likely they have disposable income for such great products because they didn't ask their customers to sympathize with them.
If you are going to object, let me remind you of my first business rule again: business is not about fairness
Perfect post! Right on, Amir.
Thank you, Alan, for your extensive reply.
Well, then negative comments about poor sound at shows will keep on coming, regardless if it feels uncomfortable to those in the industry and regardless if Peter Breuninger or anyone else in the industry will tell people to 'shut up'. 'Enough is enough' simply does not apply.
PS: Personally I never have been to shows because I have witnessed enough bad sound in dealers' showrooms, and for the most part I don't expect any better at shows, rather worse. Yet I do support the right of others to criticize what they hear.
If you are going to object, let me remind you of my first business rule again: business is not about fairness
Yes Excellent précis amirm, your last quote reminds me of another "famous"verbal-
"Behind every fortune there is a crime"--even against our ears!
BruceD
+1
I think I understand the spirit of the OPs post. Trollish behavior seems to be on the rise (myself included). Due to the spirit of the times, people are more brittle and angry and that osmoses into audio. I don't think its a matter of trying to create a suffocating, PC culture with built in censorship, but there has to be some decorum.
Right on.
As we said before: We are tired of the excuses in this industry.
Power problems, room acoustic problems, no-time-for-setup problems -- solve them. If you don't, stop complaining about negative feedback.
As Amir points out, your, the industry guys' problems, are not our, the customers' problems.
Precisely. The excuses are lame.
(As I said before, i don't go to audio shows because for the most part I don't expect good sound anyway. Good sound would be the only reason for me to go.)
I don't think a new venue would help the situation much. So you get good power. How much of a difference does that make? It is not like someone is going to custom design acoustic spaces for each setup.
Here is the thing guys (industry guys that is). Life is hard in showing equipment and getting positive feedback. No one says it isn't. But it is immaterial because it runs foul of Amir's second rule of business (first one was that businesses have no obligation to be fair). Your problems are not customer's problems!
Customers look to reviews to help them avoid bad purchases. Nothing is worst than spending a ton of money only to find out someone else knew it was no good. They look to reviews to tell them the zeros. And inversely, the heros. They want the answer. It is not customer's problem that it is hard to get to these answers or even impossible. This is what your customer desires.
I give the same talk to my employees all the time. We recently sourced a bunch of super expensive product from a company and installed them at customer site. One by one they started to fail. The product is from a major, major company. One that you would never expect to put out such faulty product. But faulty product they produced. We did some digging and identified the problem to be that of the manufacture. Right there I stopped the conversation with: what are we doing to do to fix the situation at the customer? That they could care less that this was someone else's issue. They look to us to deliver reliable goods and don't want to hear our sorry story of why we couldn't get there. We better focus on the solution and get it done.
It is a tough thing to live by but it is the right thing. We have to delight our customers. And I don't know how we do that by not talking about bad products, not deliver on the best sound in our demos, etc. People go to great expense and effort to come to these shows and they rightly demand and want the best demo the product can deliver. Likewise, we better let the news get out on forums, good, bad or different. Earlier I quoted the Stereophile negative review of Mark Levinson amp that I actually like. It needed to be said and we better volunteer it.
Now, are we going to be perfect at this? No. But it is our job to get as close as we can. We don't get an "out" by explaining how tough our job is. It is what we get "paid" to do and do well.
Yes, I am sympathetic. I always tell people there is no harder business than audio hardware industry. But we better cry on each other's shoulders and not our customers. Likely they have disposable income for such great products because they didn't ask their customers to sympathize with them.
If you are going to object, let me remind you of my first business rule again: business is not about fairness
I agree, good post.
I think what it comes down to is we need to stop finding excuses and deliver reviews and show set-ups that meet potential customer's expectations. Like it or not, the system and the equipment will be judged on the sound they make at a show. No amount of whining will change this.
Extreme examples of poor show conditions (that can all be avoided) and morally bankrupt reviewers (that commit crimes!) is just an excuse and not a justification. Why settle for anything less than excellence? This thread has revolved around excuses rather than solutions for the most part, which isn't promising.
For people in the industry, we really need to think about the younger music enthusiast that is just beginning to settle down... First of all, most of these folks have never heard a decent hifi system, ever. Next, if by chance they are introduced to a good hifi system and become interested in owning one, what is the upcoming purchasing experience going to look like? If we want to have a future manufacturing hifi equipment we might need customers and we will get more if we have good reviews and shows that are well advertised where the sound is somewhat representative of the ultimate potential of the equipment being shown.
Indeed. This is what you industry guys need to understand. You may say, oh the customer must understand the multiple reasons why it may not sound so good. No, this is not the customers' problem, this is your problem. Stop whining.
Yes, that's an important point.
Is it hard to bring some tools (laptop, mic, REW) to measure the room's acoustics and put some acoustical panels here and there plus few bass traps, and add a little bit of DSP EQ?
Did Wilson Audio @ one point went to their showroom three days in advance to prepare and have the best sound @ the audio show?
People like Nyal and Ethan I'm sure would love to be hired in helping/providing the best sound for them audio show exhibitors/dealers.
Just some simple suggestions. ...And if it's too much, then we're in the wrong business. ...I think.
* And well said before Amir. ...Quoted just above, post #407, by DaveC.
? Test: [POST]320652[/POST]
Did Wilson Audio @ one point went to their showroom three days in advance to prepare and have the best sound @ the audio show?
People like Nyal and Ethan I'm sure would love to be hired in helping/providing the best sound for them audio show exhibitors/dealers.
Just some simple suggestions. ...And if it's too much, then we're in the wrong business. ...I think.
* And well said before Amir. ...Quoted just above, post #407, by DaveC.
? Test: [POST]320652[/POST]
Last edited:
Presence at a show is advertising. If you couldn't create an ad without making excuses for your product, showing photos that made it look bad, or writing copy that said "I suck here, but it's the magazine's fault," you'd either hire a good advertising agency or not place the ad in that magazine. Blaming anything but yourself for not putting your best foot forward is just weak. What's worse, it's useless. The damage is done when the impression is made. All the excuses in the world won't turn that around.
Tim
Tim
Last edited:
Then we start brand new fresh, with brand new positive ideas? :b ...A better brand new subject in another brand new thread full of great new ideas.
...The very Best ideas.
Of course Myles's post does not cap the thread. Peter Breuninger's effusive praise of it was just another excuse for an excuse.
I would say, it doesn't appeal to the thousands either.
The purpose of a show should be to present the latest audio products in the best way possible to a keen and receptive buying public.
What they have become is predominantly a series of mediocre, pale representations of what is possible from good audio, allowing a community of tired, ex-purchasers of audio the chance to re-justify their 20th Century buying decisions.
Good products making bad sounds in demonstrations at shows and at dealers is nothing new. I've been attending audio shows for about 30 years (at least a quarter of a century of that in a professional capacity) and rooms that make a good sound have always been the exception rather than the norm.
Typically, those who make a consistently above average sound regardless of venue have one thing in common - due diligence. If possible, they 'scope' out the rooms long in advance, either to secure the best room year after year, so they know in advance what to bring to suit the room. They ensure the products arrive in good time before the show, allowing an installation that is performed correctly and carefully with settling/warming up time, rather than still fiddling round an hour before the show starts. They consistently make sure the room is clean, the products are - and remain - spotless, the collection of music is suitable for venue, room, and prospective clientele (with a great deal of wiggle room), and they have enough professionally-produced literature presented professionally. They make sure the staff manning the stand are clean, personable, presentable, and appropriately clothed. Despite all this, anyone can have a bad day, but typically those who do all this make a good sound in most places they visit.
Contrast this with the alternative. The first time they see the room is 12 hours before the show starts. They knew from a few weeks previously what brands share the room, but this is the first time they plan out how the demonstration will go, and whether their products work together. Discussions (sometimes heated) ensue as to system placement, choices of music, who does the demonstration, and whether there should be any room treatment (often followed by the blame game when Brand X thought Brand Y was bringing the tube traps, and vice versa). A collection of cold products with thumb prints from handling get put on the equipment rack (which neither company really knows how to set up properly, hence the mild 30° tilt) finally get fired up at about 8am on the morning of the show, the sheets of hastily and cheaply laser-printed paper are artistically deposited somewhere in the room, and then - given no-one's paid any attention to a show-specific playlist, the same tired old tunes are rolled out yet again.
The latter is and should be unforgivable and inexcusable, and trying to hide such actions by deeming it impolite to criticise them does good audio a bad service.
IMO, audio shows should be like car shows - they should act as an introduction to the new thing, that the prospective buyer then goes to test in their own time. Auditioning an audio product at a show is about as valid and informative as getting behind the wheel of a car in an auto show and making 'brrrrm, brrrrm' noises. But, the real-world trumps reality - people do use audio shows to determine what does and does not sound good, and if an audio show was a static display of shiny things, those who don't go to shows today wouldn't go to shows tomorrow.
So, demonstrators have to make what they have as good as they can. Dreams of audiophile-friendly venues and perfect sound in every room are just dreams. What we have in audio shows is the worst form of exhibition, except for all the others.
And yet, strangely, when he did write for the audio industry, he deployed precisely none of these things. His nickname was 'Linny' Setright because he was reputedly given a free Linn system and then just attacked anything that wasn't made in the Linn factory.
A wise person once said that the key to a happy life is to manage expectations. Somehow I get the impression that some people here expect great sound at every room in a show.
The question isn't whether or not a display is good or bad. The question is WHY. Is it the gear? Is it the setup? Is it both?
The objection is to the snap judgement happy people knowingly or unknowingly doing hatchet jobs without bothering to figure out WHY things are the way they are. This does not mean they should go in and ask for the excuses. This means doing some due diligence themselves before blasting away. Spend some time, ask some questions, ask for a track you know. It is a matter of being responsible for one's words and actions. It's not even about being PC. Just being decent. There's a lot of stuff in shows that we would consider crap but I tell you that crap is loved by the guys that made 'em. There's good stuff at shows that is made to be crappy by people manning the room. If you're going to shoot someone down, at least make sure you're shooting the person that ought to be shot.
The question isn't whether or not a display is good or bad. The question is WHY. Is it the gear? Is it the setup? Is it both?
The objection is to the snap judgement happy people knowingly or unknowingly doing hatchet jobs without bothering to figure out WHY things are the way they are. This does not mean they should go in and ask for the excuses. This means doing some due diligence themselves before blasting away. Spend some time, ask some questions, ask for a track you know. It is a matter of being responsible for one's words and actions. It's not even about being PC. Just being decent. There's a lot of stuff in shows that we would consider crap but I tell you that crap is loved by the guys that made 'em. There's good stuff at shows that is made to be crappy by people manning the room. If you're going to shoot someone down, at least make sure you're shooting the person that ought to be shot.
Similar threads
