Negative show report posts... enough is enough.

[rockitman]

Welcome back Myles...

 

[NorthStar]

That's what I called using "balanced judgement", in a reality world of audio shows.

Well put it Myles.

 

[Alan Sircom]

I'm not sure there was ever anything said about qualifications until you brought it up in order to make a reductio ad absurdium/straw man argument.

If you take a step back and look at this issue from an outsider's point of view I think hifi audio reviewing looks ridiculous. Yes, there are a lot of reasons and excuses it's ridiculous, but it doesn't change the fact it's still ridiculous.

To the outsider, this is a discussion between two snake oil salesmen on the best way to sell crap to the credulous.

 

[JackD201]

It's a great way to start my day seeing you back Myles

 

[Peter Breuninger]

Steve, that's hardly a new idea. Did you ever hear of AAHEA? They looked into doing an industry sponsored event twenty years ago and there were too many logistical and legal issues (such as some anti-trust legislation) to make holding a show impossible. Their legal counsel even advised then taking out a coop ad paid for by different high-end companies to promote the industry would be subject to anti-trust legislation.

I've been silently following this thread and it's gone in some many different tangents with lots of opinions but few facts save for a few industry insiders such as Gary and Ralph. Let me share some insights from someone who been a writer going to shows since 1985.

1. For those that think that holding a show is a money making venture, think again. Stereophile couldn't make any money on their shows and they were the only game in town back then. When their new owners looked at their expense line, the first thing, despite John's best efforts, that got chopped was the Stereophile show. And Stereophile drew as many as 14,000 at one of their NY shows. Today's shows don't sniff near this in attendance. 5000 is a lot today. Axpona is lucky if they are breaking even right now. But they are looking at building the show up for the long run. There are simply so many expenses in running a show that people don't appreciate. Not the least of what is paying the hotel or advertising. No show goes anywhere nowadays without advertising. (something that RMAF, if it's going to survive, needs to do sooner than later.)

I really don't think that people appreciate how much it costs manufacturers to exhibit--especially given the number of show today. Not does that count the expenses for the exhibitors such as union fees. Let me give an example. The first issue of Ultimate Audio debuted at the Stereophile SF show. I UPS'd 7000 copies of the magazine to give out at the show. It cost me $800 to send the magazines to the show warehouse; it then cost me $2400 to have the magazines sent from the warehouse to the show hotel.

Or years ago when Dan and Gayle showed the mega Krell amps with the ML Monoliths at the Chicago Historical Society some years ago. Dan estimated it cost them 100K to do that show. Despite some people's opinions, we're not talking companies making megabucks. What do many high-end audio companies gross? 5 million a year at most? The two biggest years ago were Levinson and Krell (that reportedly grossed around 50 million one year).

Which brings us to small manufacturers that can't afford to buy a room and their own and must coop with other manufacturers. In many cases, they don't even know who their partners are up to the showtime. But what is better? Sound or market presence? Remember shows serve many masters. Not is the show a chance for audiophiles to hear more brands of equipment under one roof than they might hear otherwise in a lifetime, but it's an opportunity for manufacturers to show in areas where they have no representation or support their dealers in a given area.

Truth be told, there's currently way too many shows and it's becoming a case of quantity over quality. There's no question that some shows will shake out and eventually we'll have three regional shows: Newport/Axpona or RMAF and something on the east coast (right now the NY show isn't instilling confidence). Then of course there's the two Canadian shows in Toronto and Montreal. Then there's Munich. Then there's HK, etc., etc. Again these companies have a limited budget.

2. Selecting a venue. Most decent hotels have no interest (such as having to move beds, etc) in hosting a show so organizers are generally relegated to second rate hotels. Organizers make the best of bad things. And no show is going to be successful except in a major urban area.

3. Rooms. Yes, exhibitors know their rooms but that means nothing. In many cases, exhibitors take what they can afford and I'm sorry but nothing but nothing is going to help a 12 x 12 room--or even as I've seen 12x12x12 room.

4. Show sound. Let me start with a quote from my Magico S5 review:

Perhaps the real take home message from the time spent with the Magico S5s is that we [audiophiles] often are far too hasty to judge the sound of a component based upon one quick listen at a high-end audio show or dealer's showroom. That old adage about hearing a component in your own system before making any legitimate judgment (s) often takes a backseat in the rush to compare listening notes with your audiobuddies or online friend. Let's be honest. Audio shows (and/or dealer showrooms) are more often than not simply a poor substitute for a home audition. Case in point: Magico speakers. Despite hearing Magico's Q-series speaker at several shows—not to mention two local Magico dealers—I was baffled by the praise heaped upon the speakers.

And you know my current reference speakers.

I'm sorry to say that if I was a professor, show sound would be graded on a C- minus curve vs an A curve for "real" audio reviews. Or the same benefit of a doubt that I give the sound of recorded rock music relative to say classical music. I just really don't understand why people are getting so bent out of shape over the sound at a show. Years ago I learned that if something sounded good at a show it was worth investigating; conversely if something sounded bad, it means nothing.

In fact, those companies showing a small speaker with limited bass response probably have a better chance of getting good sound than someone bringing mammoth SOTA speakers. Not only are we talking lousy electricity but sheet rock walls. Wall so thin you can hear someone panting in the adjoining room. Walls that are flexing like a heart beating. It amazes me when I read what some people here do in their custom built rooms and they still have problem that need correction; what issues do you think faces most manufacturers? And yes, some purposely take the same room year after year to increase their probability of getting good sound but how many rooms do you see setting the gear up on an angle in the room? Oh yes, I've never heard good bass at the show and almost activate a bass filter when I go to shows.

On the subject of electricity: there's a little difference between lighting a light bulb and powering an audio system. While we're at let's talk electricity (How is a generator going to get around a total of 15 amp service?). Do people realize that many times the AC voltage is low? As low as 102 volts reported? Oh and the electricity did go out at the NY show two years ago and generators were used to power the whole show? And the sound was horrendous? Oh and CES requires exhibitors at the Venetian to use a current clamping device on their electronics so not to blow the hotel fuses? Exhibitors are fined for the first two offenses and then their exhibit is shut down on the third offense?

So it seem to me that some people here are looking at the half empty glass of water and missing the REAL point of going to a consumer audio show: that is having a good time, hearing lots of equipment, meeting the manufacturers (where do you normally have the chance1!!!) and meeting other audio buddies?!?! If there's good sound, that icing on the cake but not necessarily something that I come to expect.

This is truly a beautiful post and caps the thread.

Thank you, Myles.

This is the best post on the thread and the best post on WBF this year.

Great optics and insight from Dr. Astor.

My best,

Peter B.

 

[esldude]

Logistically, many of these things become impossible with high-end audio publication and its budgets. You can drive one vehicle round a track, get out of that vehicle, get in the next and drive it round the same track and get viable results in an afternoon. A pair of full-range loudspeakers need to be installed, measured (if you do that), fine-tuned, bedded in, listened to, and then replaced with another pair of full-range loudspeakers that also need to be installed, measured (if you do that) fine-tuned, bedded in, and then listened to. Which is why a simple head-to-head that can take an afternoon with a pair of cars can take a week or more with a pair of loudspeakers. Also, car reviewer A can drive the review sample over to car reviewer B - we would have to pay a team of piano movers to do the same.......................

I saw a good dealer setup many years ago for making head to head comparisons. He had a large fully symmetrical room. He could place two speakers or even two complete systems in opposite ends of the room. He usually had a swiveling comfortable pair of chairs in the middle. Or for arrangements where speakers needed a different distance, he placed a pair appropriately facing opposite directions. You could listen to something, and immediately hear it on the other system by simply turning around. Easy for comparison.

Still a bother to setup well, and not great for all comparisons, but pretty nifty for many of them. It would hold some surprises too when done that way.

The 'remembered' reference is one of the biggest issues for reviewing speakers. In electronics it isn't too bad, as you can have two devices connected and swap between them. Speakers though you normally can't do that. I bet having just the one room with swappable ends would be an aid to speaker reviewing.

 

[JackD201]

There was a dealer in HK that allowed for exactly what you described. Sadly, the high rental prices there forced him to relocate to a smaller place.

 

[Alan Sircom]

Thanks for the dose of sanity, Myles.

For the record, I think the High-End Society in Germany does make a profit from the Munich High-End Show; part of that comes down to it pulling in more than 12,000 visitors, and part because the cheapest room costs €10,000 and the main atrium rooms cost a lot more.

It's also worth noting that hotel-based audio shows are so insignificant in the grand scheme of things, one of the best ones in the UK was pushed out of existence because it was double booked with a Sikh wedding one season, and the hotel weighed up the profit made from dozens of years of audio show against one large Sikh wedding... and went with the wedding.

That said, if I were an events manager at a hotel, I'd go with the Sikh wedding too. Those things are insane. They get through more Jack Daniels in an afternoon than a 1970s touring rock band would get through in five years on the road!

 

[rbbert]

The Einstein power strips at THE Show were consistently reading 117-118

The standard rooms at the Hotel Irvine were $300+/night discounted to $119 for showgoers and exhibitors. Parking was $5 for 3 days (i.e. $1.67/day) vs. $18/day normally.

 

[marty]

So it seem to me that some people here are looking at the half empty glass of water and missing the REAL point of going to a consumer audio show: that is having a good time, hearing lots of equipment, meeting the manufacturers (where do you normally have the chance1!!!) and meeting other audio buddies?!?! If there's good sound, that icing on the cake but not necessarily something that I come to expect.

And now you know why the WBF has taken a big step forward with the return of Myles B, whose comments are typically insightful, informative and much appreciated.

 

[BruceD]

The 'remembered' reference is one of the biggest issues for reviewing speakers. In electronics it isn't too bad, as you can have two devices connected and swap between them. Speakers though you normally can't do that. I bet having just the one room with swappable ends would be an aid to speaker reviewing.

When I worked at Unilet In the UK( late 70's) we had a wall of Speakers with console switching instantaneous between Speakers from same source playing--

I recall Mel Schilling in Woodland had similar device that enabled instant switching between Amplifiers

Today the Sonic Purity Police I think have vetoed those procedures !

BruceD

 

[Alan Sircom]

The Einstein power strips at THE Show were consistently reading 117-118

The standard rooms at the Hotel Irvine were $300+/night discounted to $119 for showgoers and exhibitors. Parking was $5 for 3 days (i.e. $1.67/day) vs. $18/day normally.

The costs to show goers and exhibitors as hotel guests is not the same as the costs involved to exhibit. Hotels know that if they have an exhibition running, it is in their interest to give discounted rates to warm bodies, because the cheaper it is to pack out the halls, the more it makes the exhibition company who rents those halls think the venue is worth repeat business.

 

[BruceD]

The costs to show goers and exhibitors as hotel guests is not the same as the costs involved to exhibit. Hotels know that if they have an exhibition running, it is in their interest to give discounted rates to warm bodies, because the cheaper it is to pack out the halls, the more it makes the exhibition company who rents those halls think the venue is worth repeat business.

Alan, You should mention that to Chester Group-- at the Australian Show they organise --the freaking hotel rates went UP for the Audio show

Blahhh

BruceD

 

[amirm]

Alan, You should mention that to Chester Group-- at the Australian Show they organise --the freaking hotel rates went UP for the Audio show

Blahhh

BruceD

That is certainly true of CES. Hotel rooms they give away to gamblers on weekends for $50/night shoot up to $300 to $400 during the show.

 

[Al M.]

So it seem to me that some people here are looking at the half empty glass of water and missing the REAL point of going to a consumer audio show: that is having a good time, hearing lots of equipment, meeting the manufacturers (where do you normally have the chance1!!!) and meeting other audio buddies?!?! If there's good sound, that icing on the cake but not necessarily something that I come to expect.

Welcome back, Myles.

While it is true that people go to shows to have a good time, meet the manufacturers and meet other audio buddies, they do also come to hear lots of equipment as you concede. And herein lies the crux: as someone has pointed out earlier in this thread, people do expect good sound, and do decide based on that which brands to give more consideration; you can read that sentiment all over the audio fora on the web.

And good sound does matter: an audio buddy of mine bought a very expensive turntable based on hearing it at AXPONA this year in a system that did sound very good. As it seems, the exhibitor would not have made the sale had the sound not been good. Apart from the obvious general gain in reputation that the event must have yielded for the exhibitor.

You industry guys want to dismiss the importance of good sound, because you are not really interested in finding solutions (oh it's sooo haaaarrrdd!!!) and instead rather have people shut up about the problems -- see Peter Breuninger's opening post --, but the reality is that good sound does matter. No attempts at hand-waving away the issue make it actually go away.

 

[rbbert]

The costs to show goers and exhibitors as hotel guests is not the same as the costs involved to exhibit. Hotels know that if they have an exhibition running, it is in their interest to give discounted rates to warm bodies, because the cheaper it is to pack out the halls, the more it makes the exhibition company who rents those halls think the venue is worth repeat business.

No, I was wondering where anyone was making any money and also noting what a great deal this was for showgoers.

 

[Al M.]

No problems. We can build this.

A good floating-floor IEC standard room designed for audio shouldn't cost more than about $60k to construct (if we're doing it properly, we should do it properly and you can't use domestic construction in commercial construction and keep in code, which adds to cost) and the battery power feed should cost about another $30k (that's the cost of the individual battery power feeds, assuming we don't build our own power station). We'll need about 40-50 of these rooms to make it a viable expo centre and it should be in a suitable conurbation to allow ease of access for manufacturers and public alike.

At a rough guess, that's somewhere between $6m-$10m as a start-up, excluding taxes and 'walking overheads'. Split the difference - call it $8m

If it was industry funded, it will probably start with one in China (we should go where the business is, after all) then add one in the US and Central Europe later. We could probably get the 50 biggest names to spank down $160k or so to get the ball rolling, but then the exhibitions would be a little 'samey' as they probably wouldn't want others to take their expensive 'spot'. Besides, that just buys us the venue.

Perhaps if we got 100 forum goers to come up with $80k up-front and then maybe $1,000 per year each to cover overheads until the ball starts rolling. That would do it, and that way you aren't beholden to the industry insisting it goes where the business is and you could build it locally.

Or I guess you could go with Kickstarter.

Well, apart from the obvious tongue-in-cheek aspect of some comments in your post, especially the last two paragraphs: do you really think the venue could be built that cheap, running overhead, taxes etc. aside? If it could, then the industry-funded part might deserve serious consideration, especially given the enormous costs of exhibitions that were mentioned in later posts.

And exhibitors could fine-tune the sound for a few days before an event without time pressure.

 

[Tony Lauck]

I see both sides here

2. At the same time, if someone i don't respect as a professional very much asks for a recommendation/reference for a job, i dont say yes, and then trash them in front of the future potential employer. I suggest they would be happier if they found someone else who would provide a stronger reference. i take the view we all need to eat.

Everyone needs to eat. However, not everyone is entitled to earn their living manufacturing audio equipment, especially if this involves deceiving people into purchasing products they would not have chosen without dishonest behavior.

 

[Alan Sircom]

Well, apart from the obvious tongue-in-cheek aspect of some comments in your post, especially the last two paragraphs: do you really think the venue could be built that cheap, running overhead, taxes etc. aside? If it could, then the industry-funded part might deserve serious consideration, especially given the enormous costs of exhibitions that were mentioned in later posts.

That's exceptionally bare-bones, and there is no way you could get enough people to agree to this, even if you could find people with money to fund this.

Think on it realistically for a while.

1. Where would you cite this? China would be the obvious place (in revenue terms), but inaccessible for a lot of the rest of the world. The High-End Society in Germany might find a venue, but they already have a success in the M.O.C. in Munich and would probably not change venues readily now. The US seems to have lost any kind of audio enthusiast momentum in the wider market, and the cost of land in the UK would double or even treble the costs if it were to be anywhere viable

2. Most of the biggest manufacturers would struggle to absorb this kind of financial hole in their marketing budgets required to make such a venue. My plucked out of the air cost was basically about twice most of these companies annual worldwide events cost in one hit, as an upfront cost before the place would be constructed... and they'd still need to find the money for those annual worldwide events

3. My big issue with audio shows is most of them are practically invisible. Munich gets the numbers because it's advertised across Germany and is especially advertised on posters, billboards, buses, S-bahn and U-bahn commuter trains, taxis, and local radio in Munich - that's reaching a nearby population of 1.3m over and above the audio enthusiast rank and file. If you build a specialist venue, you either need to build it very close to a similar major city (in which case the costs would rocket) or it stays preaching to the converted

4. $10m might seem a trivial sum for an industry, but when many of the brands in the audio industry would consider a turnover of $2m to be a bumper year, it's not that trivial.

5. That plucked out of the air figure didn't take taxes, rateable value, land value (and land required for parking), management and other 'walking overheads', promotion, advertising, maintenance, lighting, HVAC, electricity, legal costs, and so on into account. But let's continue plucking - $8m-$10m to build, $500k per year for the overheads. As a bare minimum. Double that if it were in the places it needed to be in order to make it viable, for an industry that mostly has to club together to spend $10k on a room.

6. Yes, if you built such a thing with the patronage of the biggest and best brands you could possibly make this happen. But it would mean those rooms were immediately booked up in perpetuity by those wealthy 'patrons' wanting their pound of flesh for their expenditure (and who would blame them?) and all that would entail is an even greater 'them and us' division between audio's Big Names and the rest. Would you want to go back to the same event year after year to see the same few dozen brands? Would you be happy in knowing if their special place was a success, they would never bother showing up anywhere else, turning all the other events into 'small beer' events?

Edit: You see, it's not "uninterested in finding a solution", it's "we've explored a hell of a lot of options already". In the same way there was the AAHEA in America, there is The Clarity Alliance in the UK, and I was its first chairman. We threw a lot of different ideas at a lot of different walls, and not a lot of it stuck.

 

[Mosin]

Can we have a show of hands - how many here have had to set up a demo in a strange hotel room you have never been in or seen (or conference room if it's a commercial venue) within a day to demo the next day to a bunch of critical audiophiles and reviewers? And have had to sit through the entire day pandering to critical audiophiles and reviewers?

It is hard work. And you have to contend with varying electrical supply because there are another 300 rooms sharing the same power.

How many reviewers have done the same? Again, lets' have a show of hands.

I think you will have a much higher appreciation of critical reports and excuses from exhibitors when you've done it.

IF any of you would like to experience this, PM me and I'll invite you to the set-up crew for the next show. So far, I've never had anyone inflict this upon themselves more than once (and I do treat them well!!).

Gary,

A lot of times it can be even worse than that. Often, a manufacturer shows with other manufacturers that he has never met who make equipment he has never heard. Often, some of the pieces are prototypes that have hardly any hours on them. Maybe one even needs repair the evening before the show begins. What if it can't be fixed? Then, the others are left scrambling for an alternative. Added to all this is the fact that many manufacturers are totally mentally and physically exhausted before the show even starts. There is always an element of risk associated with shows for a lot of exhibitors.

I've been fortunate, as have you, but quite a few have not.