Negative show report posts... enough is enough.

[ravenacustic]

Sorry folks. I'm not in the biz. I attend a couple of shows each year to have FUN! I get a chance to hear equipment I rarely get to hear and see exhibitors, many of whom I know and like, and catch up on whatever. I don't go expecting to hear ANY equipment at its best. Some exhibitors with a good sounding room at one show don't have the magic at another. Same gear both venues so obviously it's the room detracting from quality sound. And some of you want the vendor to assess rooms ahead of time? I just attended Newport and I was there until closing so a friend could pick up a rack he had purchased from an exhibitor. These people barely had there cars packed and ready to head out and another show or convention of some kind was already rolling in and at the registration desk. There is no time to assess rooms. I go to have fun and I do. Newport was really good this year. And BTW, Peter certainly doesn't need my say so but without any note comparing before or after the show, I often find myself in agreement with him regarding rooms he felt sounded very good.

 

[TheMadMilkman]

And some of you want the vendor to assess rooms ahead of time?

Newport somewhat gets a pass because it was at a new venue. RMAF has been in the same hotel since 2006. The veteran exhibitors know, or should know, the limitations of the rooms by now.

I know of one exhibitor who gets the same room each year, brings the same speakers, and puts them in exactly the same spot (the electronics change). It consistently sounds very, very good.

 

[amirm]

Amir, is it me or is there a double standard? The OPs post are peppered with condescension and name calling with comments like, "Cowards", "Cowardly PM", "I am an expert with years of experience with top level audio equipment.., I am not a once-in-awhile casual observer", "Separating the wheat from the chaff, those with the knowledge and those with an opinion." "You are a thoughtful poster and deserve a reply", "The sales of an industry? Perhaps you smoke on the pipe."

Enough is enough, if you want to halt the thread for name calling, look no further than the source.

Both sides are warned, not one. Forum rules stipulate discussing topics and not each other. If you see a post violating this, please report it. If you respond to it in kind, then we can't adjudicate properly. As I said, we are doing great outside of that relapse.

 

[prerich]

Lately the boards, and I mean all of the boards and the 'zines (as well) have been posting negative show room reports.

I believe this is the lowest of low behavior. It is frankly cowardly, if you don't have anything positive to say then why say anything at all. How would you like it if I was invited into your home and then publically bashed your system?

We all hear differently. We all have biases. By posting a negative report you are in effect elevating yourself as an expert and trust me, you are not an expert. Experts know why rooms have problems, experts know why components get mismatched. Experts know that certain music can make or break a room.

Do these cowards know how hard it is to setup a system in a hotel room in one day?

I've frankly had enough of this behavior.

Peter Breuninger

PS: I will also add to this thread, if you PM me regarding my OP, I will make it public. One coward has already done this and since I did not state this in advance, the cowardly PM will remain private. All future PMs will be made public.

I actually agree with you (with the exception of name calling - Johnny Vinyl know I won't do that). Three years ago I stated that I "wasn't impressed with the MBL Room" at Axpona - but I also put a disclaimer in there - I blamed it more on the music than I did the speakers. It was blazing loud electronica music. I know the MBL's are excellent speakers - most of what I heard at Axpona 2O12 was good to excellent (some down right magical...Tidal, Scanea, Legacy, and Joseph Audio).
You are so correct - our hearing comes with biases - cultural, age, physical health, and many others!!!! At this level i tend to never see terrible speakers - it's really buyers preference....and that's all that really matters in the end - right?

 

[prerich]

Sorry folks. I'm not in the biz. I attend a couple of shows each year to have FUN! I get a chance to hear equipment I rarely get to hear and see exhibitors, many of whom I know and like, and catch up on whatever. I don't go expecting to hear ANY equipment at its best. Some exhibitors with a good sounding room at one show don't have the magic at another. Same gear both venues so obviously it's the room detracting from quality sound. And some of you want the vendor to assess rooms ahead of time? I just attended Newport and I was there until closing so a friend could pick up a rack he had purchased from an exhibitor. These people barely had there cars packed and ready to head out and another show or convention of some kind was already rolling in and at the registration desk. There is no time to assess rooms. I go to have fun and I do. Newport was really good this year. And BTW, Peter certainly doesn't need my say so but without any note comparing before or after the show, I often find myself in agreement with him regarding rooms he felt sounded very good.

You are also right!!!!! I saw reports from Munich and Newport and the systems sound different from show to show. Tells me that there are a lot of factors when sound is considered. As a Klipsch Heritage owner - I am in no way considered high-end, however, I have managed to make my Cornwalls loose the horn "honk" via room treatments and DSP....with the exception of their spl, they don't really sound like horns at all to me. Put them somewhere else ... they will stink! The same with my old Snells - they were replaced with Heresy speakers...the same heresy's that the Snells trashed before the room treatments (sucked the life out of the Snells in my opinion - but perfect for the Heresy). Was one speaker better than the other....not to me, just different.

Sound&Vision put up an interesting article from a recording artist that states that listeners can't hear what they hear in the studio because they don't have setups like that, they listen in cars and with "Beats" - the interviewer interrupted her and told her about the audiophile community. She really didn't know that people with elaborate systems existed!!!!! That's another coin in the fountain!

I've only had the pleasure of going to Axpona 2012 - but while there I had the opportunity to experience many different systems in just 2 days! I loved living in the Tidewater area because there was so much around concerning audio - but now i'm in audio purgatory (NW FL). When I get a chance to hear a really high end system - I take it for what its worth - a lot of thought and effort went into building it, but it was also was built under optimum conditions (more than likely), so your mileage will vary

 

[Al M.]

Both sides are warned, not one.

I hope, then, you have warned Peter Breuninger in a private message. He started the whole mess. We do hate double standards, as has been pointed out. He doesn't deserve favored treatment as 'son of the industry' when it comes to misuse of tone.

 

[harleyguy]

I hope, then, you have warned Peter Breuninger in a private message. He started the whole mess. We do hate double standards, as has been pointed out. He doesn't deserve favored treatment as 'son of the industry' when it comes to misuse of tone.

get over it move on

 

[Alan Sircom]

There have been a lot of logical fallacies and poor excuses to support the very strange idea of only publishing positive reviews imo. Don't journalists have an obligation to their audience to report honestly? How does only publishing good reviews help the readers of your publication? If you were a reader perusing reviews on a potential purchase and everything you read is positive how does this help? I do agree there is a lot of good gear out there but it's not all equal and there is an especially wide range of value for the money, which I feel is rarely addressed. I also wish there were more comparison articles like the car mags do. I think audio reviewers could learn a lot from the way car mags do reviews...

Yes, we have an obligation to report honestly.

Let's take your cables as an example. Your loudspeaker cables look like they are Litz construction. And one of my reviewers wants to review them... on his early Naim NAP500.

Would the honest thing be to let this review go ahead, or would the more honest thing be to place this cable with someone who uses an amp that isn't going to go into oscillation simply as a result of using Litz wire?

My take on this is the honest thing to do here is to attempt to replicate the end user's buying experience, and where possible place the product in context.

Having worked on comparison tests for about 16 years from 1992-2008, I know the good and bad of them. The psychology of reading is curious when it comes to group tests, in that people tend not to read them, just read the conclusion and work back from there. Typically, if you review six products, five of those six reviews don't get read and worse, people tend to demand comparison tests have a conclusion page of salient points that people can use like a game of Top Trumps or slapjack. This has dreadful consequences: I once worked on an amp test where the best sounding amplifier in the group (Sugden A21se) was the least well specified in terms of power output, inputs, and most of the other tick boxes on a conclusion box. I remember this well because the 'winner' in spec terms was heavily pushed by the company and sold well, despite it being criticised for mediocre sound, and because I still use an A21se.

 

[Atmasphere]

We'll just disagree on that.

Not talking about it does NOT have the same effect as a bad review because the public never finds out the unit didn't perform.

So if the unit was damaged in shipment, or worse yet by accident you shorted out the speaker terminals and damaged it yourself- the review goes on??

Ralph just made the case for Internet reviews by non-professional reviewers. (It sounds like he modified his view that any bad review is the result of unethical conduct). I don't doubt that unethical conduct of the type he describes occurs-- but what he is describing is worse than unethical- it sounds like extortion- demanding something of value under threat.

Extortion- yes, I've encountered that several times.

Well, how about this, Ralph -- bad reviews may be the product of unethical reviewers.
A review, conducted dispassionately, which yields a less than favorable conclusion has merit.
It occurs to me that one need evaluate the reviewer as critically as the component under review.

I'm good with that! And in fact that is exactly what we do prior to shipping a product for review- we evaluate the reviewer. FWIW, the vast majority of reviewers we encounter want to do a good job. The ones that cause most of the troubles are a minority.

If you do not trust any review , it makes no difference whether its positive or negative
If , like a LOT of people , you buy on reviews or rely on them to narrow the field ..then a negative review of any component is irrelevant anyway as you will be looking at the 5 star stuff... so why waste publication space with bad stuff?

The only real way you can evaluate any component is to get it into your listening room/environment and spend a week or 2 with it.

^^ This. +1. I am of the opinion that as a community of audiophiles we have been collectively lied to for the last 50 years or so. Do you like the specs on the amp (or speaker, or preamp, whatever)? Take it home and see if you like it. Liked the review that component X got? Take it home and see if you like it. Is the manufacturer/ dealer/ distributor/ reviewer's lips moving? Take it home and see if you like it.

The commonality is we all have to take it home and see if we like it, no matter if we are objectivist, subjectivist, tube lover, solid state lover, whatever. This is because actually getting the straight story is pretty difficult.

Can we have a show of hands - how many here have had to set up a demo in a strange hotel room you have never been in or seen (or conference room if it's a commercial venue) within a day to demo the next day to a bunch of critical audiophiles and reviewers? And have had to sit through the entire day pandering to critical audiophiles and reviewers?

It is hard work. And you have to contend with varying electrical supply because there are another 300 rooms sharing the same power.

How many reviewers have done the same? Again, lets' have a show of hands.

I think you will have a much higher appreciation of critical reports and excuses from exhibitors when you've done it.

IF any of you would like to experience this, PM me and I'll invite you to the set-up crew for the next show. So far, I've never had anyone inflict this upon themselves more than once (and I do treat them well!!).

+1 on that too.

 

[Al M.]

+1!

In one of our rooms, we were getting 107V on the first day, 102V on the second, in one particular outlet in that room. Needless to say, we had to pull power from a different outlet...


alex

Well, then perhaps the industry needs to get creative. Instead of constantly complaining about the bad hotel rooms without doing anything about it *), how about every manufacturer chipping in for an overhaul of the entire power system of the hotels that are exhibited in? It's always the same 3 or 4 hotels anyway.

Perhaps that sounds like an outlandish idea, or perhaps that's something worth to actually think about. If the organizers of such shows are able to succeed actually getting the show off the ground (no small feat), then they should also succeed in making this part of the package. Sitting there and just endlessly complaining helps nobody, and certainly not the industry whose reputation suffers from bad exhibitions.


*) Remember, we are tired of the endless excuses of the industry.

 

[steve williams]

how about every manufacturer chipping in for an overhaul of the entire power system of the hotels that are exhibited in?

seriously

 

[harleyguy]

wow

seriously

 

[bonzo75]

Living voice had batteries - all battery powered

 

[GaryProtein]

So if the unit was damaged in shipment, or worse yet by accident you shorted out the speaker terminals and damaged it yourself- the review goes on??

Be realistic.

If the unit was damaged in shipping you obviously can't review it.

Some things should be self evident.

 

[Al M.]

seriously

Or perhaps creating their very own venue. Look, just throwing hands up in the air and saying we can't do anything about anything doesn't help anyone. The industry has done that for decades. Perhaps my ideas are crazy, but crazy ideas are better than no ideas. No?

 

[Al M.]

Living voice had batteries - all battery powered

Now that's an idea, and not even a crazy one.

See, throwing suggestions up in the air does help -- ultimately someone points to something that could actually work for everybody.

 

[TheMadMilkman]

Living voice had batteries - all battery powered

With things like the new Tesla Powerwall, this could be a realistic option for a lot of rooms within a few years.

 

[Alan Sircom]

A more fundamental problem is using hotel rooms as simulations of the home. Not only do you share the same AC, but you share the same corridor with people who are playing music. The nearest thing to this is a college dorm.

Worse, I've been to a small show, and the sudden realisation of how creepy it is to have a bunch of old geezers moving from hotel room to hotel room is not recoverable. Hiding us away in hotel rooms isn't going to make high-end audio more visible, either.

It's slightly easier for the head-fi guys, because they have the quietest demonstrations in consumer electronics.

 

[garylkoh]

Or perhaps creating their very own venue. Look, just throwing hands up in the air and saying we can't do anything about anything doesn't help anyone. The industry has done that for decades. Perhaps my ideas are crazy, but crazy ideas are better than no ideas. No?

Design your power supplies to work far beyond the vagaries of "show power" - but then that might be an over-kill for the home with the consequence of much higher costs (which may result in more sales!!!).

Some hotels do it right - when I spoke to the chief electrical tech in The Venetian before the show started in the first year of CES at that new venue, he told me that we audiophiles are pussies compared to the Mary Kay convention. When 3 women in each room fire up their up 3,000W hair dryers at the same time and this happens in 500 rooms just before the final celebratory dinner starts, Las Vegas browns-out. Not just the hotel.

 

[Tam Lin]

Perhaps that sounds like an outlandish idea, or perhaps that's something worth to actually think about. If the organizers of such shows are able to succeed actually getting the show off the ground (no small feat), then they should also succeed in making this part of the package. Sitting there and just endlessly complaining helps nobody, and certainly not the industry whose reputation suffers from bad exhibitions.

If electric power quality is so important, the show producers should provide it like the motion picture industry does. For location shoots they hire power contractors who arrive with diesel powered generators on semi trucks with miles of cable as big as your arm to provide many kilowatts of clean power for the lights and other equipment. But if they did, exhibitors would not have a convenient excuse for their poor sound.