This would make a great bookend for the original post. It supports my notion that the OP, as written, is exactly what it's author intended to write. It's not surprising that this thread has taken off and reached 440 posts in three days.
Negative show report posts... enough is enough.
- Thread starter Peter Breuninger
- Start date
This would make a great bookend for the original post. It supports my notion that the OP, as written, is exactly what it's author intended to write. It's not surprising that this thread has taken off and reached 440 posts in three days.
If the customers want to hear better sounding music at audio shows, then the audio shows need to change venue. There's no other solution.
One possibility would be smaller and more frequent shows which involve city dealer/manufacturer showroom tours. For the most part, manufacturer and dealer rooms are much better than hotel rooms. Of course, the cost would be a little higher due to transportation and the number of attendees would need to be limited. However, the experience would be way better.
If the price for entry were a little higher, dealers/manufacturers would be happy to know the attendees are better qualified and experienced buyers. It would be cool, for example, to be shuttled to and from dealer, manufacturer and maybe pro show rooms in Seattle or Denver or L.A. Maybe something similar to a Napa wine tour? With be advent of Uber or Lyft, transportation would be very easy in most of these cities. Of course, this would require competing dealers and manufacturers to cooperate with one another. But the potential customers would be much higher caliber.
Michael.
One possibility would be smaller and more frequent shows which involve city dealer/manufacturer showroom tours. For the most part, manufacturer and dealer rooms are much better than hotel rooms. Of course, the cost would be a little higher due to transportation and the number of attendees would need to be limited. However, the experience would be way better.
If the price for entry were a little higher, dealers/manufacturers would be happy to know the attendees are better qualified and experienced buyers. It would be cool, for example, to be shuttled to and from dealer, manufacturer and maybe pro show rooms in Seattle or Denver or L.A. Maybe something similar to a Napa wine tour? With be advent of Uber or Lyft, transportation would be very easy in most of these cities. Of course, this would require competing dealers and manufacturers to cooperate with one another. But the potential customers would be much higher caliber.
Michael.
Enough is Enough
I've stayed out of this whole subject up till now. I just hate to expend energy on negativity. but enough is enough.
the underlying issue that brought us to this point has little or nothing to do with a listening opinion about a room at a show. it has everything to do with personal agendas and prior conflicts influencing posts.
the '15 second' reviewer/listener who's negative post prompted the manufacturer response, which then prompted Peter's OP on this thread has had prior run-ins with the manufacturer; they are both local in the San Diego area. additionally I personally have had conflicts with this '15 second' person as he has accused me of pimping for that manufacturer in prior posts here on WBF.
so there is history behind his poking his head in the room for 15 seconds, shaking his head, and walking out. he knew damn well what was going down as he approached the room.
he has every right to not like the speaker or room, and to not like me or have opinions about me or the manufacturer. are some of his feelings based on listening? I don't know that they are not. but even giving him the benefit of the doubt on that his decision to post that opinion and add his dig on the speaker was anything but objective. and then to see what the manufacturer response has caused across many forums in these last 5 days is sickening to me.
last Sunday night late I posted a response to this '15 second' guy that was shorter and more to the point than the manufacturer's response the next day. it called a spade a spade on allowing his personal feelings and history justify taking his shot. but then Sunday night I could not sleep all night as it bothered me to get so negative. so I got up early and deleted it. then I tried to talk the manufacturer out of posting his response knowing the sh*t storm it would cause. I feel bad that Peter got himself dragged thru the mud reacting to the baloney post. I don't agree with how Peter wrote his OP, but I understand his reasons for doing it. I'm sure he would re-write it now if he could.
it's been bothering me all week watching this go down and finally I felt I needed to shed some light on the real story. this was not about posting negative objective opinions about rooms at a show. it was about an opportunity to further an agenda.
no doubt the '15 second' guy has his own reality. obviously he loves all the sh*t he has brought to the subject. which was his intent to begin with.
those local in that audio culture understand this even more than myself.
whenever you react to 'sh*t' you get some on you.
I've stayed out of this whole subject up till now. I just hate to expend energy on negativity. but enough is enough.
the underlying issue that brought us to this point has little or nothing to do with a listening opinion about a room at a show. it has everything to do with personal agendas and prior conflicts influencing posts.
the '15 second' reviewer/listener who's negative post prompted the manufacturer response, which then prompted Peter's OP on this thread has had prior run-ins with the manufacturer; they are both local in the San Diego area. additionally I personally have had conflicts with this '15 second' person as he has accused me of pimping for that manufacturer in prior posts here on WBF.
so there is history behind his poking his head in the room for 15 seconds, shaking his head, and walking out. he knew damn well what was going down as he approached the room.
he has every right to not like the speaker or room, and to not like me or have opinions about me or the manufacturer. are some of his feelings based on listening? I don't know that they are not. but even giving him the benefit of the doubt on that his decision to post that opinion and add his dig on the speaker was anything but objective. and then to see what the manufacturer response has caused across many forums in these last 5 days is sickening to me.
last Sunday night late I posted a response to this '15 second' guy that was shorter and more to the point than the manufacturer's response the next day. it called a spade a spade on allowing his personal feelings and history justify taking his shot. but then Sunday night I could not sleep all night as it bothered me to get so negative. so I got up early and deleted it. then I tried to talk the manufacturer out of posting his response knowing the sh*t storm it would cause. I feel bad that Peter got himself dragged thru the mud reacting to the baloney post. I don't agree with how Peter wrote his OP, but I understand his reasons for doing it. I'm sure he would re-write it now if he could.
it's been bothering me all week watching this go down and finally I felt I needed to shed some light on the real story. this was not about posting negative objective opinions about rooms at a show. it was about an opportunity to further an agenda.
no doubt the '15 second' guy has his own reality. obviously he loves all the sh*t he has brought to the subject. which was his intent to begin with.
those local in that audio culture understand this even more than myself.
whenever you react to 'sh*t' you get some on you.
The OP is about/caused by one person? Wow. It did not read that way, nor did later posts from Peter indicate a wish to rephrase that OP. Following the discussion has been interesting.
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I disagree. There are some manufactures who do a good job and have a nice sounding system every time. Maybe others can learn from them?
We are already seeing the rise of the "private event" at audio shows. I've rarely, if ever, read a scathing listener experience from one of these events.
Hotel rooms are garbage. They can only show gear, not music. It's time to move away from the 150 square foot box.
Hotel rooms are garbage. They can only show gear, not music. It's time to move away from the 150 square foot box.
Nonsense. Some manufacturers do a great job setting up lowly hotel rooms. If you want to show a huge speaker you should get a larger room, and this is an available option...
I cannot reconcile that with the numerous fantastic musical experiences I have had at shows, in hotel rooms.
Part of my OP is about "biases." Your biases my biases. You develop biases over time. It's based on human survival.. the known pathway to safety for the caveman.
As an expert reviewer (why does this upset so many people, the word expert- I'm sure every riled up poster here is an expert in something, it's just not in audio), I have learned over time what my audio biases are due to the audition of a wide variety of audio equipment in many settings, homes, shows and stores. Most people do not have this experience. It is very evident when I visit someone's home and their system is threadbare, two dimensional, and bright in the upper frequencies, despite the fact they attend a show or two every other year and frequently visit other audiophile homes. I suspect they have built in a bias for detail appreciation or perhaps they may suffer from a mild form of tinnitus. Wherever the reason, they have a bias for their own system and sound and when asked they say others systems "suck". What I see happening here in this thread is denial, just like the fellow with the bright system, he simply does not believe (he denies) his system is bright and two dimensional. When he goes to a show he hates the sound of most systems and when he speaks of other audiophile's rooms he has disparaging comments.
This is a bias issue. His bias. If this person posts on the Internet that a room at the show sucked and was only in it for 15 seconds... I believe him. I believe in his belief, but not that the room sucked.
Everybody riled up here is mad, they are mad because they have personal denial of being wrong. So when they are challenged, they fight. I posted this thread because this has been accepted Internet behavior for years. To state an opinion without the appropriate knowledge and with perhaps tremendous built in bias. That is my opinion. The problem is, this behavior has gone unchallenged for years. This is the first time they have been "called out" and they don't like it.
This is not about audio. This thread is about the human nature. This thread is about being challenged when they themselves have challenged others for years with impunity. Exhibitors can't challenge them in public. Someone should step up. Now someone did and they don't like it.
As an expert reviewer (why does this upset so many people, the word expert- I'm sure every riled up poster here is an expert in something, it's just not in audio), I have learned over time what my audio biases are due to the audition of a wide variety of audio equipment in many settings, homes, shows and stores. Most people do not have this experience. It is very evident when I visit someone's home and their system is threadbare, two dimensional, and bright in the upper frequencies, despite the fact they attend a show or two every other year and frequently visit other audiophile homes. I suspect they have built in a bias for detail appreciation or perhaps they may suffer from a mild form of tinnitus. Wherever the reason, they have a bias for their own system and sound and when asked they say others systems "suck". What I see happening here in this thread is denial, just like the fellow with the bright system, he simply does not believe (he denies) his system is bright and two dimensional. When he goes to a show he hates the sound of most systems and when he speaks of other audiophile's rooms he has disparaging comments.
This is a bias issue. His bias. If this person posts on the Internet that a room at the show sucked and was only in it for 15 seconds... I believe him. I believe in his belief, but not that the room sucked.
Everybody riled up here is mad, they are mad because they have personal denial of being wrong. So when they are challenged, they fight. I posted this thread because this has been accepted Internet behavior for years. To state an opinion without the appropriate knowledge and with perhaps tremendous built in bias. That is my opinion. The problem is, this behavior has gone unchallenged for years. This is the first time they have been "called out" and they don't like it.
This is not about audio. This thread is about the human nature. This thread is about being challenged when they themselves have challenged others for years with impunity. Exhibitors can't challenge them in public. Someone should step up. Now someone did and they don't like it.
MikeL, thanks for your post. I think I'm beginning to understand why this thread is so confusing. There seem to be two distinct discussions going on: one by those on the outside who are reacting to what Peter B actually wrote in the OP, and one by those with inside knowledge, who know what Peter B was really thinking but failed to make clear in his OP.
This would make sense were it not for Peter B's subsequent posts which, for the most part, reinforce the OP and add no clarifying information about a particular on line review from one individual about a specific show demonstration.
I don't know what to think. In the post just prior to yours, Peter B took credit for being the first to call out all the unchallenged biased non-experts posting stuff about audio shows on the Internet. He seems to be framing the OP in the broadest terms possible, instead of focusing on one individual.
Did you hear the one about the two guys in the woods who spotted a bear close by? One guy started to tighten his shoelaces. The other said what are you doing? You can't outrun a bear. The other guy said I only have to outrun you.
Ah life on the show circuit
Hehe, good one.
if the President of the United States miss speaks publically his press corps will go to great lengths to spin it somehow in a positive direction and away from problem and justify what was said. when it would have been better maybe to have just said 'I should not have said that'. once one goes down the road of justification it is hard to go back. and now after 470 posts on this thread and other threads on other forums this monster, however ill conceived, has got a life of it's own.
The thread for the most part has progressed and become far more constructive than its beginnings. Industry people are sharing the issues and barriers they see to doing such demonstrations/reviews, and the readership is reacting to them. Little of this is specific to whatever riled up Peter to write his post. The topic has generated a lot of interest from the readership beyond the narrow borders that Peter defined.
Much of what we are discussing now is not negativity but the back and forth between the needs of consumers/readership and that of the industry. With due discussion perhaps there is better understanding of each other's point of view.
OK that makes sense. Well, it's too bad there's some guy out there giving a bad name to the vast majority of enthusiasts who post their opinions about audio shows - folks who (in general) do not fit the profile Peter B paints. Frank discussion of the audio hobby is crucial to building a community of informed enthusiasts. Dismissing people's posts because the authors are not "experts" is the wrong approach, in my opinion.
I don't necessarily agree that the performance of the electronics may not be to blame for bad sound at shows. Note, I said 'the performance of the electronics', not the electronics themselves (even though fundamental mismatches may occur). If there are constraints on the power supply, the amp(s) may not perform properly. This may especially hold for high-powered amps that draw a lot of current. Such a power problem may have been responsible, for example, for the complaint by several observers (not just one) that at AXPONA 2015 the sound of the Magico M Project speakers suffered from a 'thin' midrange and an excessively bright treble. Under better circumstances the M Pro simply don't sound that way, as I have experienced myself (in fact, they are the best speakers I personally have ever heard).
The discussion here about how to improve show conditions has revolved to a significant part around the power issue. And that is an electronics issue.
That is not why so many of us are upset about your OP. Maybe your 15 second man is, I don't know but it was the sheer obnoxiousness of you language that pissed so many off. I can't believe you can't see that.
OK, what say we fall back on everyone mumbling "I disagree with what you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it" and move this thread onto more constructive elements about how audio should be demonstrated?
That may necessitate starting a whole new thread.
That may necessitate starting a whole new thread.
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