Negative show report posts... enough is enough.
- Thread starter Peter Breuninger
- Start date
Perhaps someone could provide a link to the offensive show comments that "15 second man" posted that apparently prompted Peter B's OP. That might help to clarify what was so "cowardly". I've been searching the net, but it looks likes it's been scrubbed clean.
'15 second' man's post;
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...15-Who-s-Going&p=319433&viewfull=1#post319433
manufacturer's post;
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...15-Who-s-Going&p=319629&viewfull=1#post319629
I am very interested in this concept of "expert" reviewer. I can agree with expert in engineering/electronics and audio design. I can also agree with expert journalism - I love reading the words of Roy Gregory no matter what they are actually saying.
So back to the "expert" audio reviewer in this context - how does one earn this coveted title and through what specific qualifications? What are the metrics of this test? Genuinely intrigued. For a start, men over a certain age should be out due to their deteriorating ability to hear higher frequencies defined by biology.
So back to the "expert" audio reviewer in this context - how does one earn this coveted title and through what specific qualifications? What are the metrics of this test? Genuinely intrigued. For a start, men over a certain age should be out due to their deteriorating ability to hear higher frequencies defined by biology.
Well, if you have followed the thread you will have noticed that some of us actually have debated concrete solutions...
Wow. You make it very hard to address the post and not the person, particularly when so much of your posts are about you. So here - this is very much about the post above, but unavoidably about you: No one is mad at your expertise; I don't personally know enough about it to challenge it or confirm it, and don't care, at this point, to learn any more. People here are mad at the insults you've directed at everyone who disagrees with your opinion, not your expertise. This thread began "riled up mad," with your original post. Go re-read it. If you don't see it, hand it to someone who will be frank with you, someone with no opinions on high-end audio, and ask them if they think it is a challenge or an attack. I think they'll tell you what I will; it's arrogant, dismissive and insulting. When you insult people on other subjects, do you expect thanks for the information? Or is it only in your area of expertise that you think you can demand respect from those you have disrespected?
Carry on. I've said enough.
Tim
I can't pretend to know what was in PeterB's head when he wrote his original post; it was provocative and I think on reflection, had he written that the challenges of show presentations being what they are (for all of the various reasons already addressed here), it may be unfair to read too much into a show report, I doubt that would have generated anywhere near the amount of controversy.
Can show presentations be improved? Sure. Can the industry do more to embrace consumers at all levels, whether neophyte, casual show looker or serious buyer? No doubt.
As I said pages ago, I don't think you need "golden ears" to hear the differences in systems, components, different masterings, etc. I do think you need time, a quiet environment and the ability to change out and compare (whether it is gear, set-up or simply the source material). Show conditions aren't conducive to that.
Nonetheless, PeterB's complaint that negative show reports should be treated as 'cowardly' is a little over the top. I'm not making excuses for PeterB- I've talked to him several times -and found him to be a "mench"-- but have no agenda here other than to note, as I think is already obvious- that the "quick impression" does not serve as a legitimate review ( assuming you believe that any review, however in depth, has legitimacy, which appears to be an open question as well).
If Peter had simply said that negative shots based on a quick impression at a show should be discounted for what they are- I doubt we'd be embroiled in any of this. But he didn't and here we are....
postscript: Having read Mike L's explanation- that the post(er) PeterB was referring to had some 'agenda' makes sense, but PeterB would have been better served, on reflection, with saying as much: e.g. that in some cases, the sniping is from persons who have ongoing issues with a manufacturer, dealer, etc. and those should be read with additional skepticism. I get a better sense from Mike L's comments what this may have been about, but it certainly wasn't apparent from PeterB's posts.
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And along the way we have had some interesting, perhaps even constructive, discussions about how shows can and should be improved, and the actual role that good sound at shows plays from both the perspective of some representatives of the industry and the general public.
It is hard to believe that such an innocuous post would generate such venom. I was not in the room so can't comment on the sound. I have heard that brand of speaker sound pretty good though. But the response was off the charts IMHO. Would not exactly want to make me buy from that dealer. I get having a business can get personal. I had my own law practice before retiring and doing other things with my life. I get all that. But one has to let some things roll off ones back. Look at sites that do hotel and restaurant reviews. Sure, the competition posts negative reviews to damage their competitors and the business has other friends post positive reviews. It happens, but most of the reviews are honest. It is illustrative to see how a hotel for example, responds to a negative review. If they attack the poster, I have no interest in visiting that hotel. If they do it respectfully and attempt to address the issue, I have a very different reaction. Why Peter B had to get involved with such an obnoxious post is beyond me completely and I have known peter a very long time..
The second half of your sentence makes sense; the first half doesn't, since pretty much nothing posted here in the last week is likely to effect a change in how rooms at shows sound.
Probably by listening just as Peter claims. But again, we all listen. perhaps they should a sliding scale when it comes to experts in the audio listening field.
The second half of your sentence makes sense; the first half doesn't, since pretty much nothing posted here in the last week is likely to effect a change in how rooms at shows sound.
For me the biggest issues I have with rooms at shows is there are too many people squeezed in, the rooms are often way too loud, there is too much talking (take it outside guys) and ever increasingly, they won't play your music. deal with all these and it will make for a better experience. Now back to the yard work!
The second half of your sentence makes sense; the first half doesn't, since pretty much nothing posted here in the last week is likely to effect a change in how rooms at shows sound.
Perhaps, perhaps not. I am not pretending that this thread will have any immediately felt impact on the wider industry. After all, this is just a tiny corner of the internet, and an even tinier corner of the world at large. But perhaps if some industry representatives here become more aware of the issues and how some of the general public see them, and discuss them with other representatives, knowing that the public is sick of excuses, there may be some influence, miniscule as it may be. One can always hope...without having great pretensions about it.
So, audiophile Bill has been a first trombonist in an orchestra and apart from listening to gear and live music, has taken tests where he had to listen to music and pick out wrong notes etc. Also, he is at an age where he can listen to higher frequencies than many. But unfortunately he has not written reviews, or made videos.
He has also not taken the harmon test (not being sarcastic amir, my current impression is that the harmon test is not as good as a live music test, though I do admit if I take it 6 months later I might change my mind, just like not believing in dsp till I heard a proper set up. I do know the value of trying out what I don't currently believe in. But currently, I don't think it's a proper test)
Not to be pretentious, but here's an industry secret that should actually be apparent...
Most manufacturers think what they make is great even if it isn't. Most of them have a devout core of followers who think so, too. The excuses are often after the fact just to placate the naysayers who may be able to hear, or not. Some of the naysayers also have agendas. Then again, the naysayers are often right.
Audio is a business made up largely of enthusiasts, and when I first thought about getting into it I was given some advice from an established figure that I have never forgotten. I saved that e-mail, so here's an excerpt from it...
"A couple hints- there are almost no true professionals in home audio, regardless of their stature, size of their businesses, or supposed qualifications. Acceptance & success is as much or more who you know as what you have to offer. Watch your backside."
What I bring away from all this is that we should just try to do the best we can without malice toward anyone else. I try not to be too judgemental, even when I know in my heart that some make inherently inferior products. I simply avoid those products, or running them down to others.
I don't think there is an 'expert' audio reviewer. There are experts in measurement, experts in listening, and expert writers, the properties of which combine to a lesser or greater extent to form expertise in reviewing.
That being said, Gladwell's '10,000 hour rule' probably applies, and someone who has been listening and writing in the field for enough time that their personal listening odometer clicked past 10,000 hours in the listening chair and at the writing desk could justifiably call themselves an expert.
There is an issue of biology and chronology here, and technically most men over 40 have a hearing mechanism too unreliable to make robust judgement calls on audio performance, and it's downhill all the way from there. Experience and a willingness not to jump to snap decisions about products that age brings goes some way to counter this.
MikeL, thank you for providing the link to "15 second man's" post and Jtinn's response. I have to agree with Joe Whip. I just don't see how this exchange on a WBF thread could prompt Peter B's original post. DaveyF's comments are no worse, and actually quite similar to the dozens of comments from audiophiles who have visited rooms at shows. I am particularly reminded of the many negative comments about Magico (or other brand) speakers to the effect that they "never sound warm" or "may be liked by others but not by me", etc. etc. I see this all the time on WBF and other sites. The difference is that Alon Wolf (or other manufacturer) does not then respond to the individual by joining the thread to defend his product. Is Peter B's OP also a critique of all of those Magico bashers? I think not.
I am left thinking what I have written before, namely that Peter B's original post is meant to be taken as he wrote it and subsequently defended it. It is a call for censorship by an industry expert journalist and his post script is a warning to publicize private communications. As such, it comes across as arrogant, threatening and insulting to the very audience that reads these forums and watches his videos. The reaction is clear in the close to 500 posts in this thread.
Hi Alan,
Thanks for honest response - I concur with everything you said and I like hifi+ fwiw (enjoy the writing).
To others,
In terms of the mythical test - is this the Harman how to become a better listener? I just googled and found this and it is free software to train the ear but I did not see a test per se. In my musical training we undertook quite a few tests where you listen to various instruments solo and together, follow the score, and circle notes that are deliberately sharp or flat. I think this would be a very interesting test to run amongst the "expert" audio fraternity. It is essentially not far off frequency testing other than being more linked to music rather than science.
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