Network Improvements and their Impact on Sound Quality

romaz

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2015
214
1,290
363
Haha
We have similar thoughts! :D

Yes, all hifi components can be voiced.
Not only by the circuits, the circuit board components but also the chassis, the plugs/connectors, the solder ...etc

If we transplant the innards of a Goldmund or CH Precision products into an ordinary high class but non-proprietary chassis, much of the magic will be lost.

CAS/network components are no exceptions!

What you are saying is very true and there are clearly audible differences between the Melco and the Buffalo as previously stated. In my system, the Buffalo sounds a touch sharper while the Melco sounds smoother. For @austinpop, this is an issue. In my case, it is subtle enough that I find it tolerable and more importantly, the core qualities of what makes the Melco special are definitely in the Buffalo. The density, the spaciousness, the bass dynamics and definition, it's all there. I make this point mainly for the DIY community who are potentially looking to build around the Buffalo. The Buffalo at about $200 is 1/10 the retail price of the Melco. Even with this "sharpness" that some will describe as an edginess, would 2 Buffalos at possibly 1/4 to 1/2 the price of a single Melco be better still than a single Melco? For the qualities I seek, I would say yes.

With respect to the Melco and Buffalo chassis, just looking at the chassis, I'm not sure this is where the main differences in SQ originate from. The grade of aluminum/steel look the same. As for how the PCB is mounted, it doesn't look like there was any special attention paid to the Melco. The Buffalo is actually tunable by software whereas the Melco has been locked down. In @nenon's mod, he adds certain thoughtful touches like Gaia feet and a vibration dampening material to the inside of the chassis. This is more than what the Melco offers.



@nenon also uses double shielded Mundorf silver/gold alloy DC cabling and high grade connectors. I'm not sure if @nenon is looking to sell his services to the general public since this kind of thing is just a hobby for him but I can vouch for the quality of his workmanship and his attention to detail.

Regarding what is at the root of the SQ differences, if I am to guess, I have to believe it must lie with the filtering cap array that is in the Melco and so even this can be improved upon. Same with clock replacement for those who want to take it as far as they can.

For those who have no interest in DIY or modding to infinity and beyond and have the budget for 1 or even 2 M12 Golds, then yes, skip the Buffalo and go straight to the Melco. I do believe the combo of M12 Gold + S100 would be end game for most.
 

romaz

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2015
214
1,290
363
Thanks again Roy!

I just looked on the Melco website, but their page for locating dealers in the U.S. appears to be locked. Does anyone know where these can be purchased? I'm in California.

Basil Audio in the Bay area near where you live is a Melco dealer and they had one in stock just a month ago. I can also recommend Care Audio in New Jersey. The owner, Sunil Lekhi, once loaned me a Melco server for evaluation and he was very easy to work with.
 
  • Like
Reactions: onsionsi

romaz

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2015
214
1,290
363
Thank you!
By the way there is another potential contender in this growing list of router / switch : Waversa Wrouter which can be used as a switch but also and more interestingly as an “audiophile” router so you can have an entire network built specifically for audiophile reasons.

I've been curious for awhile about the Waversa but there are no comparative evaluations that I have seen. They're very expensive and for very little money, the EdgeRouter has already raised the bar quite high.
 
  • Like
Reactions: onsionsi

romaz

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2015
214
1,290
363
I am sure some of you, if not, must have heard about Dante connectivity. In my setup, I have two boxes - one that converts USB to Dante and the second one converts Dante to AES that goes into my dCS Debussy. I have been on this system for almost three years now and have compared it to several setups where computer is connected to a DAC using USB input on DAC.

I understand that this is slighltly out of context but it is still relevant because Dante takes the SQL to a level where it makes it very easy for duscern differences when it comes for comparing performances of Ethernet switches and cables.

My setup has PoE switcches where stock SMPSs were replaced by LPSs that made the system quieter.

I had a very positive experience with Dante/RedNet a few years back but I was able to beat it with the network I had in place at the time. As a closed system, you're forced to use only Dante-enabled products and these products were not always audiophile-grade meaning you had to mod them significantly such as replacing SMPSs.
 

romaz

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2015
214
1,290
363
Hi Roy,

what do you think about Audirvana for Windows with the Extreme?

Thanks

Matt

Unfortunately, because the Extreme's browser is semi-locked down for obvious safety reasons, I am unable to install Audirvana and so I will need assistance from Emile with this. While I won't be surprised if it is better, Audirvana has a lot of features and I worry it will suffer the same fate as Roon one day.

Right now, I am focusing on JPLAY Femto Server.
 

adamaley

Well-Known Member
Apr 15, 2016
588
546
228
Minnetonka, MN
Bit of a fly in the ointment, this Roon thing. What would you Extreme customers be doing right now if Emile couldn't perform his remote cures for all of you?
And is Mr. Pink Faun and Mr. Innuos offering the same service? Or are PF 2.16 and Innuos Statement customers stuck w worse Roon self-inflicted SQ?

Most of these devices are player agnostic. There are multiple other options one can use. My concern is for folks with a lifetime Roon subscription. Seeing as they are all about features and not sound quality, you're relying on providence to keep shining on you each time they come out with a new release.
 

onsionsi

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2019
57
22
88
41
One other switch to consider is the Melco S100 as reported on by @hols and @CKKeung and others. This is the final switch I have been interested in auditioning and I have it now:




This switch actually belongs to @seeteeyou and is the same switch that @hols, @austinpop, @nenon, and perhaps others have evaluated and so this switch is well traveled from Japan to Hong Kong, Chicago, Austin (Texas), and now the Sierra Nevada foothills of northern California. This switch can tell some stories, lol.



I actually have a second Melco switch (a Buffalo that uses the exact same board as the Melco that was modded by @nenon) that was sent to me courtesy of @austinpop which has allowed me to evaluate the impact of 2 of these switches. While there are subtle differences between the 2, for my practical purposes, I find them to be equivalent and so I will refer to them as one in this report.

I also presently have a Sonore opticalModule on loan:



I decided to also try an alternative SFP, this time a wide-temperature 10G model from Finisar to compare against the MGB-TLX SFP from planetechusa.com that has been my reference since early February:



I currently have 6 switches on hand in addition to the EdgeRouter and SB8200 modem (and so 8 network devices). Powering each one properly was a challenge but I managed to apply either an SR7 or SR4 rail to each device. In each instance, a better power supply made a significant difference, much larger than differences between Ethernet cabling.

As for the impact of 6 network switches, through repeated addition and subtraction of each switch, it was easy to hear each switch's individual impact. Much has been said about applying your best switch last (closest to your server) but to my ears, the impact of the 1st switch is no less than the impact of the last switch. It's as if the character imposed by the switch on the signal is forever embedded into the signature and this signature can be modulated in some way by subsequent switches but not removed. I'm confident that if I had 10 or 20 switches in series, they would each contribute something. In my case, combining all 6 switches did not provide a net positive.

Is the contribution of a good switch just "isolation?" I'm not so sure. I think each switch is probably offering some isolation but then also imprinting its own noise signature that can either be positive or negative and this new signature becomes embedded to the new signal. With the etherRegen, for example, there is this famous moat that is advertised but once you cross the moat, the output stage of this switch will have its own signature based on the properties of the chipset, clock, resistors, capacitors, PCB traces, dielectric coefficient of the PCB, etc. It turns out network equipment is also prone to considerable EMI emissions that if not properly contained, can significantly impact surrounding components (i.e. other switches and worse, your DAC). As a proof of concept, I entered the "B" side of the eR so as to utilize its moat. I then connected the SFP side of the eR to the SFP side of the Melco. If the eR's moat already is providing supreme isolation, then why is the Melco altering the sound further (and for the better)? This is why I say each switch must be imprinting its own signature and that if you decide to place even 100 switches in your chain, each switch will continue to alter the sound.

I presently do not have the M12 Gold in my possession but I will have it again soon. That switch is just too good not to own and I really miss it. Presently, I have the equivalent of 2 Melco S100s, 2 SOtM sNH-10Gs, an etherRegen, and an oM. To my ears, it almost doesn't matter what order you have them in. If I have the sNH-10G in the first position or the last, I can hear it's qualities quite easily. It offers the best depth of any of the switches I have heard but it also imparts a certain thinness. This thinness was never a problem with my previous servers but it is not a quality I can accept with the Extreme and so I will be moving on from it. For some time now, the etherRegen has been functioning as an FMC in my system as I do not prefer its "B" side with the Extreme. I believe many Extreme owners feel the same way. The eR provides nice body and when powered well, excellent dynamics and liveliness, especially with the MGB-TLX SFPs from planetechusa.com. The oM performs similarly, maybe slightly better and for less money but ultimately, what either the eR or oM offers pale in comparison to what the Melco S100 offers and do not offer the resolution of the Melco. The Melco S100 is very obviously the superior switch to my ears and while this is mostly likely system dependent, dual Melco S100s are even better and so I see my final network configuration finally starting to take shape.

What the Melco S100 offers that no other switch can offer to the same degree is sound staging, dynamics, and fullness. While I do not presently have the M12 Gold in my possession, there is no doubt in my mind it cannot compete with the Melco when it comes to these qualities. With 2 of them in series and when powered by SR7 rails, even at low listening volumes, the dynamics and fullness of the midbass and midrange are just incredible. They are behaving literally like active gain stages but in the digital domain. Moreover, it's not "one note" bass, it's very well defined bass with excellent bass texture that is especially appreciated when listening to a solo cello or double bass. The sound stage and air is also beyond any switch I have heard. With complex large orchestral music, you really get a better sense of the dimensions of the venue. The SOtM comes close and provides better depth and detail delicacy but again sounds thin. In comparison, the eR and oM sound flat and add nothing to what the S100 already brings. My eR will now be retired as well.

Based on the balance of qualities I seek, for now, my anticipated network will look as follows:

SB8200 modem > copper > EdgeRouter > copper > Melco/Buffalo > copper > M12 Gold > copper > Melco/Buffalo > fiber > Extreme.

For my preferences, fiber needs to be somewhere and I prefer it straight to the Extreme and yes, the quality of copper Ethernet cabling still makes a significant difference. As for the SFPs, the more expensive Finisars did not sound as good as the MBG-TLX from planetechusa.com.

Consider the above as one person's perspective. Obviously, YMMV.

Thank you again @romaz for this magnificent review and just out of curiosity, do all your copper cables are Sablon or a combination between SOtM and Sablon.
 

kswanson27

Well-Known Member
Nov 21, 2018
368
179
128
79
Most of these devices are player agnostic. There are multiple other options one can use. My concern is for folks with a lifetime Roon subscription. Seeing as they are all about features and not sound quality, you're relying on providence to keep shining on you each time they come out with a new release.
I disagree. I have a Roon lifetime subscription. I use many but not all of its features and I care very much about sound quality.
 

hifimckinney

Well-Known Member
Mar 17, 2017
20
6
108
I had a very positive experience with Dante/RedNet a few years back but I was able to beat it with the network I had in place at the time. As a closed system, you're forced to use only Dante-enabled products and these products were not always audiophile-grade meaning you had to mod them significantly such as replacing SMPSs.

Thanks for your response. Could you please share as to what could beat your Dante setup because I have tried different things but there something with Dante that sets it apart from others. The way Dante renders music is a total different class - realism is at its best. The some other USB based setup I have tried, though they are ultra clean (does not mean Dante is not clean) the placement of artifacts from front to back, air around, hollowness...everything is gone if it isn't Dante.

I am not questioning your experience in any way, just sharing mine and since Dante is relatively less expensive endeavor, I like to encourage folks to try it out.

There is a shortcoming however that Dante is played at fixed sample rate so, if you have set it to 44.1, it does not change automatically based on source. I have been sticking to it because most of my listening is with RedBook and internet radios and they sound so good that I never thought of trying High Res.
 

Rhapsody

VIP/Donor
Jan 16, 2013
3,469
6,553
2,535
Brooklyn NY
Rhapsody.Audio
Hifimckinney,

How goes it? What is your system?....thx
 

hifimckinney

Well-Known Member
Mar 17, 2017
20
6
108
Hifimckinney,

How goes it? What is your system?....thx

Hey Rhapsody,

The chain is like this.

adLink fanless Win 10 (running Fidelizer Pro) -> RDL USB to Dante box -> Netgear switch (powered by LPS) -> Audinate AVIO Dante to AES adapter -> dCS Debussy -> Silvercore Preamp 324 -> Karan Acoustics KAS400 -> Tekton Design Moab speakers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rhapsody

Rhapsody

VIP/Donor
Jan 16, 2013
3,469
6,553
2,535
Brooklyn NY
Rhapsody.Audio
Thx and nothing more than me being curious:)

I heard the real thin model of the Tekton. I was amazed at the sound and it was at a show in a hotel room. The Moab model must be even better yet. Karan builds super amps/electronics. Nice system......thx (again, nothing more than curiosity.)
 

heebrog

Well-Known Member
May 12, 2018
131
51
135
Perth, WA
Hi Marty,

I actually don't know the difference between an inexpensive switch and one of the high end switches talked about in this thread. I actually only know what I have tried in my system and have personally observed the results.

Hi Bob,

Don't you have an inexpensive switch (EdgeRouter) in your setup?
IIRC, the audiophile switches in your setup improved on this.
 

Rhapsody

VIP/Donor
Jan 16, 2013
3,469
6,553
2,535
Brooklyn NY
Rhapsody.Audio
Hi Bob,

Don't you have an inexpensive switch (EdgeRouter) in your setup?
IIRC, the audiophile switches in your setup improved on this.

Well yes with the Edge router. Even though $100 it seems to me like an audio grade product. If I wasn't spending more $$$ I would be really happy with the Edge and a $200 LPS. I could have stopped there, but why stop when you are on a roll?:)

My MAZE of devices and cables are WAY out of control at the moment. I have to dedicate 2-3 dedicated spaces in the equipment racks which I have not done yet. I have just been connecting items and cable are flying everywhere. Although I do have the LPSs and switches on Diaza platforms then routers on an SRA rack. But it's a mess.

I have to get the maze situated and then maybe I will get to a few comparisons. Although probably nothing on the cost effective switch devices. Of course it would be fun to hear the Melco and I eventually I have an ER coming for a visit.

I enjoy this entire network experience, a whole new candy store:)
 
  • Like
Reactions: heebrog

adamaley

Well-Known Member
Apr 15, 2016
588
546
228
Minnetonka, MN
I disagree. I have a Roon lifetime subscription. I use many but not all of its features and I care very much about sound quality.
Then you agree with me. My point is that Roon developers definitely don't care about sound quality. I've experienced the quality drop over the last two years I've used it. After switching to Euphony last month, the degradation is starkly evident.
 

mercury999

Well-Known Member
Apr 22, 2020
11
13
68
62
Thanks for all the great posts about the impact enhancing your network can make on a system. I recently bought an EdgeRouter X and wanted to share my experience with you. I have a Verizon Fios router (3100) and wanted to see the impact a dedicated router would have on the sound of my system. My Verizion Fios router is in my family room- and about 50 feet (copper wire) from my dedicated listening room in the basement. I put the Edge router in the basement a few feet from my system. I connected a Wireworld Starlight 8 ethernet cable from my router to an EtherRegen, and a Sablon Audio ethernet cable from the EtherRegen to my UltraRendu streamer. The Ultrarendu is connected to my DAC by a Sablon Audio usb cable. I also have Emerald Physics dipole speakers, twin Syzygy subs, a Spread Spectrum Technology Son of Ampzilla amp and an Exogal Comet DAC. I inserted the Edge router in my system with the standard power supply and noticed a nice (not subtle) improvement in resolution and soundstage depth. It was if layers of haze that I had accepted as normal (and didn't realize was there) for my system were cleared away. What I didn't expect was the incremental difference a LPS would make on top of what I already heard with the Edge router. I purchased a Small Green Computer 12v, 50 watt LPS and inserted it into my system today. I couldn't believe the difference it made.

The bass in my system is now amazing. I don't understand how a LPS for my router could have such a profound effect on the sound of my system. The two biggest things I now hear are: 1) bass is cleaner with more slam. The bass has always been a challenge for the dipole speakers. My subs do a nice job of filling in the lower register, but the integration with the dipole speakers is just ok. What I now hear is a dramatic improvement; and 2) the soundstage is deeper. The effects were not subtle. Like Rhapsody described in his earlier posts, I was absolutely stunned by what I heard. The Sablon usb and ethernet cables made a major improvement in the sound of my system. But the network changes I've made, along with the EtherRegen, improved the sound as much as the new cables did (which is a lot!). I feel like I've gotten a new amp. As many of you have described in this forum, getting the network right is the foundation for everything else. I have a level of emotional engagement with the music that I haven't had before. All for a much cheaper cost than upgrading my amp, streamer or DAC. There is no mistaking the improvement I've heard.
 
Last edited:

wil

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2015
1,522
1,548
428
There's a lot of talk about the Ubiquiti Edge Router. I got one but have yet to get it to function in my system.
In any case, I'm wondering if there's something special about this router that my Cisco 2960 Gigabit switch doesn't also deliver?
 

wil

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2015
1,522
1,548
428
What I didn't expect was the incremental difference a LPS would make on top of what I already heard with the Edge router. I purchased a Small Green Computer 12v, 50 watt LPS and inserted it into my system today. I couldn't believe the difference it made.

Mercury, isn't your Edge router 24V dc?
 

kswanson27

Well-Known Member
Nov 21, 2018
368
179
128
79
Then you agree with me. My point is that Roon developers definitely don't care about sound quality. I've experienced the quality drop over the last two years I've used it. After switching to Euphony last month, the degradation is starkly evident.
I certainly DON'T agree with you. Did you not understand my fairly simple statement? To repeat--I care very much about sound quality. I also like many of Roon's features as I suspect many of us here that use it do.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing