Network Improvements and their Impact on Sound Quality

[Blackmorec]

Hi Romaz,
Brilliant and most useful piece of work. This is something I’m sure a great many forum members and beyond have been most curious about, myself included. From my own limited experience i would like to bring up 2 points from your article whose importance or better said, contribution readers may underestimate given the article’s focus on switches and those are; the quality of the power supplies used and the use of the same or highly similar supplies throughout the chain.
In my experience, the quality of power supplies used potentially has more influence on the final sound than any single switch and from my (limited) experience, implementing the same power supplies through out also seems highly advantageous, given that mixing supplies CAN have disproportionately deleterious effects on the final outcome.

 

[romaz]

Actually my audiophile friends and I had a short gathering during the past weekend.

BTW all of us worry about the future of Roon very much.
If the Roon Team doesn't put sonic performance one of their top priorities, we will be in big trouble.
Emile has to find an alternative software.

This is a sad reality. The latest Roon update has forced many of us to hit the reset button on our configurations. The combinations that were sounding great before are no longer sounding that great now and the future with Roon does not look good. I am earnestly seeking alternatives now.

 

[Sablon Audio]

Hi Mark, @Sablon Audio . Do you have plans to built M12 to M12 and M12 to RJ45 Ethernet cables?. I asked a friend in Japan to purchase and ship to me two M12 Gold switches.

Yes, I do Carlos.

 

[nenon]

The Melco S100 is quite interesting.
It is an excellent switch in term of usability and sonic performance.

However, if we examine its circuitry, it's very similar to the two previous "Network Music Switches" launched by Buffalo Japan (the parent company of Melco/Dela) two years ago.
They are :
Buffalo BSL-WS-G2108M/A (https://www.buffalo.jp/product/detail/bsl-ws-g2108m_a.html )
Buffalo BS-G2016A (https://www.buffalo.jp/product/detail/bs-gs2016_a.html )

Many CAS audiophiles in HK bought them and even modded them with linear powersupplies.
However they can never be as good as the Melco S100.

The Melco S100 circuit board is very similar to the BS-G2016A.
Is its superior performance and sound signature due to the much reinforced/improved chassiss and internal components such as plugs and connection/soldering?

If this is the case, this Melco makes the S100 in accordance to the usual audiophile components design & manufacture principles.

I was covering that subject in another forum. You may find it interesting - https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...eaming/page/651/?tab=comments#comment-1047951 - especially the part about voicing of the Melco.

 

[CKKeung]

I was covering that subject in another forum. You may find it interesting - https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...eaming/page/651/?tab=comments#comment-1047951 - especially the part about voicing of the Melco.

Haha
We have similar thoughts!

Yes, all hifi components can be voiced.
Not only by the circuits, the circuit board components but also the chassis, the plugs/connectors, the solder ...etc

If we transplant the innards of a Goldmund or CH Precision products into an ordinary high class but non-proprietary chassis, much of the magic will be lost.

CAS/network components are no exceptions!

 

[matthias]

This is a sad reality. The latest Roon update has forced many of us to hit the reset button on our configurations. The combinations that were sounding great before are no longer sounding that great now and the future with Roon does not look good. I am earnestly seeking alternatives now.

Hi Roy,

what do you think about Audirvana for Windows with the Extreme?

Thanks

Matt

 

[Rhapsody]

Hi Romaz,
Brilliant and most useful piece of work. This is something I’m sure a great many forum members and beyond have been most curious about, myself included. From my own limited experience i would like to bring up 2 points from your article whose importance or better said, contribution readers may underestimate given the article’s focus on switches and those are; the quality of the power supplies used and the use of the same or highly similar supplies throughout the chain.
In my experience, the quality of power supplies used potentially has more influence on the final sound than any single switch and from my (limited) experience, implementing the same power supplies through out also seems highly advantageous, given that mixing supplies CAN have disproportionately deleterious effects on the final outcome.

I agree as well. I noticed maybe the largest "gain" when I added the PS to my Gold Switch and the Edge router.

It's really great to get these confirmations of different devices that then allow all to personally experiment in their own systems, but with a head start from those who have gone before.

I really appreciate both the contributions of Romaz and Blackmorec, it has been an enlightening experience. Thank you!

 

[marty]

I'm a newbie in the network improvement area but I thought it was interesting to see what many of the pros think about some audiophile grade switches. The Melco, for example, received a pretty scathing review on Steve Hoffman's forum
https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/more-snake-oil-low-noise-network-switch.893790/

The sentiment that came across from many there is that small inexpensive business switches made by Cisco and others were as good as the so called audiophile switches. There were also several comments that improving the power supply to these switches were significant and well worth the cost (similar to that said on the forum), whereas the expensive switches in general, were not. One therefore wonders, has anyone taken any of the lost cost switches with an improved power supply and actually compared them head-on to the Melco, M12, SoTM, etc?

 

[CKKeung]

I'm a newbie in the network improvement area but I thought it was interesting to see what many of the pros think about some audiophile grade switches. The Melco, for example, received a pretty scathing review on Steve Hoffman's forum
https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/more-snake-oil-low-noise-network-switch.893790/

The sentiment that came across from many there is that small inexpensive business switches made by Cisco and others were as good as the so called audiophile switches. There were also several comments that improving the power supply to these switches were significant and well worth the cost (similar to that said on the forum), whereas the expensive switches in general, were not. One therefore wonders, has anyone taken any of the lost cost switches with an improved power supply and actually compared them head-on to the Melco, M12, SoTM, etc?

To be frank, CAS audiophiles in Taiwan and Hong Kong have been "playing" switches for years.
I can still remeber the old days 5 or more years ago when most HK CAS audiophiles had got a Cisco SF100 or 110 Series unmanaged switch or a Zyxel switch with metallic chassis and paired them up with diy LPS.
We have been through that journey already.

Yes, some of the business switches got great hardware and/or software onboard but they are usually managed switches and unsuitable for audiophiles, particularly when it was so many years ago.

Every details in CAS count.
There must be a demand for audiophile switches.
Do they worth the high prices? YMMV

 

[Rhapsody]

I'm a newbie in the network improvement area but I thought it was interesting to see what many of the pros think about some audiophile grade switches. The Melco, for example, received a pretty scathing review on Steve Hoffman's forum
https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/more-snake-oil-low-noise-network-switch.893790/

The sentiment that came across from many there is that small inexpensive business switches made by Cisco and others were as good as the so called audiophile switches. There were also several comments that improving the power supply to these switches were significant and well worth the cost (similar to that said on the forum), whereas the expensive switches in general, were not. One therefore wonders, has anyone taken any of the lost cost switches with an improved power supply and actually compared them head-on to the Melco, M12, SoTM, etc?

Marty,

I read through the SH thread you mentioned. It's two pages of posts knocking CA switches in general just like people knock cables making a difference or not, WITHOUT ever hearing them.

No one on that thread has done any type of proper evaluation of the product in a high end system. They are just knocking audiophiles for spending $$$ vs buying the cheapest thing you can purchase. After all bits are bits in all of their minds.

 

[marty]

CK and Bob,
I hear you. We all know the "all cables must sound the same" mentality is everywhere. But still, a lot of the Hoffman nerds are studio engineers so while their audiophile bashing is not unexpected, I am still curious if "non-audiophile standard switch + good LPS = or > audiophile switch" as per serious listening tests. I guess you both feel the answer is "no way in hell". Got it!
Marty

 

[spiritofmusic]

Bit of a fly in the ointment, this Roon thing. What would you Extreme customers be doing right now if Emile couldn't perform his remote cures for all of you?
And is Mr. Pink Faun and Mr. Innuos offering the same service? Or are PF 2.16 and Innuos Statement customers stuck w worse Roon self-inflicted SQ?

 

[Rhapsody]

CK and Bob,
I hear you. We all know the "all cables must sound the same" mentality is everywhere. But still, a lot of the Hoffman nerds are studio engineers so while their audiophile bashing is not unexpected, I am still curious if "non-audiophile standard switch + good LPS = or > audiophile switch" as per serious listening tests. I guess you both feel the answer is "no way in hell". Got it!
Marty

Hi Marty,

I actually don't know the difference between an inexpensive switch and one of the high end switches talked about in this thread. I actually only know what I have tried in my system and have personally observed the results.

What I have experienced is that the high end switch(es) that I have tried provided a big uptick in SQ, especially adding a top notch LPS to power the switches. Somehow I sort of doubt if a cheap switch would do the same, but again I would not know unless I tried it, which I do not intend to do so.

I have followed as CK has mentioned the Asian audiophile community and they have gone through this experimentation a few years ago regarding switches/routers. They have progressed from the non audio grade to audio grade switches due to the observed, during rigorous testing, the audio grade switches indeed provide superior sonic results.

 

[Rhapsody]

Bit of a fly in the ointment, this Roon thing. What would you Extreme customers be doing right now if Emile couldn't perform his remote cures for all of you?
And is Mr. Pink Faun and Mr. Innuos offering the same service? Or are PF 2.16 and Innuos Statement customers stuck w worse Roon self-inflicted SQ?

Marc,

This thread is about networking not Roon and the Extreme. That belongs either in the Extreme or a Roon thread, don't you think?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Sure...you see my lack of adeptness at computer audio, can't even choose the correct thread to comment in Lol.

 

[Rhapsody]

Sure...you see my lack of adeptness at computer audio, can't even choose the correct thread to comment in Lol.

 

[wil]

Hi Romaz,
Brilliant and most useful piece of work. This is something I’m sure a great many forum members and beyond have been most curious about, myself included. From my own limited experience i would like to bring up 2 points from your article whose importance or better said, contribution readers may underestimate given the article’s focus on switches and those are; the quality of the power supplies used and the use of the same or highly similar supplies throughout the chain.
In my experience, the quality of power supplies used potentially has more influence on the final sound than any single switch and from my (limited) experience, implementing the same power supplies through out also seems highly advantageous, given that mixing supplies CAN have disproportionately deleterious effects on the final outcome.

Matching power supplies-- something else for the diligent (I did not say obsessive) computer audiophile to worry about. But thanks for the advice.

As many probably have a haphazard collection of power supplies, It would be great to know what one would look for in power supply design that would indicate which ones would likely perform well together?

I, for instance, have a mix of Keces, SBooster, Small Green Computer and an Uptone Lps 1.

 

[austinpop]

I'm a newbie in the network improvement area but I thought it was interesting to see what many of the pros think about some audiophile grade switches. The Melco, for example, received a pretty scathing review on Steve Hoffman's forum
https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/more-snake-oil-low-noise-network-switch.893790/

The sentiment that came across from many there is that small inexpensive business switches made by Cisco and others were as good as the so called audiophile switches. There were also several comments that improving the power supply to these switches were significant and well worth the cost (similar to that said on the forum), whereas the expensive switches in general, were not. One therefore wonders, has anyone taken any of the lost cost switches with an improved power supply and actually compared them head-on to the Melco, M12, SoTM, etc?

Indeed, many of us have been on this journey for years, as @CKKeung points out.

I've written about my own journey and experiments extensively. I actually summarized this in the Background and Technology Background sections of my etherREGEN review at this link: https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/uptone-audio-etherregen-review-and-comparison-r887/ If you follow the links within the Background section, you'll find posts by myself and @romaz , along with many others.

The monster "A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming" thread is a 3+ year long compendium of people's experiments with all aspects of the digital streaming chain. Look at the first post for an index (of sorts). There's a lot about switches and networking!

 

[CKKeung]

The monster "A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming" thread is a 3+ year long compendium of people's experiments with all aspects of the digital streaming chain. Look at the first post for an index (of sorts). There's a lot about switches and networking!

This AS thread is legendary!

 

[hifimckinney]

I am sure some of you, if not, must have heard about Dante connectivity. In my setup, I have two boxes - one that converts USB to Dante and the second one converts Dante to AES that goes into my dCS Debussy. I have been on this system for almost three years now and have compared it to several setups where computer is connected to a DAC using USB input on DAC.

I understand that this is slighltly out of context but it is still relevant because Dante takes the SQL to a level where it makes it very easy for duscern differences when it comes for comparing performances of Ethernet switches and cables.

My setup has PoE switcches where stock SMPSs were replaced by LPSs that made the system quieter.