Neutrality of tone and width of timbral palette

RogerD

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When I sit down to listen to a opera for instance,the first thing I need to hear is clarity (the state or quality of being clear or transparent to the eye or ear; pellucidity: the clarity of pure water.) with out clarity, there is no believability. This is a recording and is effected by so many variables,but the one test a recording and the playback must pass is clarity. Clarity is the one marker that sets the standard for the quality of the audio reproduction. The degree of clarity will tell you how much noise is present in the system,and that degree of noise will effect believability dramatically. When you acheive a noiseless system all the markers of reproduction increase,dynamics,speed,tonal purity,venue reproduction,imaging,defintion,resolution,coherence,ambience retrieval,frequency reproduction,and so on. Give me great clarity and the reproduction is believable no matter if it is digital,analog,tube or SS. It can all produce a believable illusion,given that it is noiseless.
 

LL21

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O.k., Tim, you have finally convinced me that I have to take care of vibrations, after others here have already pointed out the virtues of doing this. Your detailed review of the SRA equipment platform was engaging, and the described performance impressive. Fortunately, Goodwin's High End from whom I got all my gear and room treatment over the past several years (with the necessary exception of the BorderPatrol power supplies for the amps) has the HRS equipment platforms that you also mention. I suppose Lloyd will have only positive things to say about them here...

Hi Al...just checking in...anything on the isolation front?
 

goldeneraguy

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Dec 11, 2012
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Hi Al...just checking in...anything on the isolation front?
Hi Lloyd,
just a question on your isolation.I tried and am using Symposium products for sandwiching my Pure Power re-generator.BIG IMPROVEMENT in detail and image focus.Now I would like to try doing the same on my amps and pre.
Can I ask how you distributed the TOP: HRS,Artesania and the others including the 154 lbs. of brass.
Many thanks
ed
 

LL21

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Hi. My experience has been that some components do very well with HRS damping plates on top (in addition isolation underneath). Reduction in note "shimmer", increase in "density" of note and imaging at the extremes can improve. On amp, sub and the Tripoint, I have found adding weight on top of the HRS/Artesania damping plate helps further. Specifically, I have found that in the case of amp and Tripoint about 45lbs worked. Anything less and I realized there was no change...but at that level, there was an "intensity" of tone in violins which I did not have before. Someone else who just tried it on his Tripoint noted the same thing. On sub, I use 3 x 25lb weights, each on top of an HRS nimbus coupler. Helps keep the cabinet vibrations down. Hope that helps.
 

goldeneraguy

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Dec 11, 2012
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Hi. My experience has been that some components do very well with HRS damping plates on top (in addition isolation underneath). Reduction in note "shimmer", increase in "density" of note and imaging at the extremes can improve. On amp, sub and the Tripoint, I have found adding weight on top of the HRS/Artesania damping plate helps further. Specifically, I have found that in the case of amp and Tripoint about 45lbs worked. Anything less and I realized there was no change...but at that level, there was an "intensity" of tone in violins which I did not have before. Someone else who just tried it on his Tripoint noted the same thing. On sub, I use 3 x 25lb weights, each on top of an HRS nimbus coupler. Helps keep the cabinet vibrations down. Hope that helps.
Appreciate your response.
Thank you for the info
 

Phelonious Ponk

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I agree that it is hard to speak of a defined original event. As you say, and as anyone else with extensive concert hall experience will attest, the perceived acoustic and tonal balance varies from row to row, and from seat to seat within a given hall. Add to this the fact that microphones usually are installed in places that do not resemble any audience position in the hall, and often are even hung from the ceiling -- there is no 'seat in the sky' to compare what the microphones capture (balcony seating is usually further from the stage and even higher).

The recording that produces for me the best illusion of a live experience over my system is perhaps Wolfgang Rihm's avantgarde work "Jagden & Formen" (Hunts and Forms) for 23 players. While the illusion is not perfect by any means, the timbres and spatial experience remind me very much of the sound that I heard last year from the ensemble Sound Icon playing other avantgarde music in the Paine Hall of Harvard, in Cambridge. Mass., sitting in the fourth row. Yet this may be just a coincidence; who knows how different the sound might have been had I sat somewhere in the hall where the actual recording of the CD took place. There is no way of knowing what the 'original event' sounded like.

I think instead of being about precisely capturing the elusive 'original event' (who sits where the mikes are actually located, including their height?), audio recording and reproduction can only be about believability. Do the tonal balance and timbres, whatever they may be, 'warm' or 'cold', resemble anything that I have experienced in a concert hall? Is the overall coherence of sound signature through all frequencies believable? Are there audible outliers in the frequency spectrum that spoil the illusion of a live event? For example, a certain prominence of high frequencies relative to the other frequencies will be more believable on a 'colder' recording with a brighter midrange than on a 'warm' sounding one with a more present lower midrange -- the converse with receded high frequencies may be true as well. Do the timbral signatures of diverse orchestral groups or soloists match one another to create a coherent illusion within a single perceived acoustic? The latter question of course will come up in the context of multi-miking, apart from the difficulty of matching spatial and ambient clues from all instruments involved (some multi-miked recordings, including the above mentioned one, excel at all that). The better both the recording and the system are, the more the reproduction will sound believable -- even though the sounds may not precisely resemble the 'original event' from any actual seat in the hall where it took place.

"I was there, it sounds precisely like that" -- such an assertion is difficult to make filtered through, as you say, the long lens of memory.

Agreed. Excellence in live recording is about creating a believable illusion of a hypothetical original event. The original event is not captured by the microphones and, therefore, does not exist on the recording. As a benchmark, "The original event" is more fantasy than reality. It is the listener imagining what the performance might have sounded like, and letting his perceptions here that in the recording, his suspension of disbelief aided or hindered by the recordist's skill.

Tim
 

microstrip

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Agreed. Excellence in live recording is about creating a believable illusion of a hypothetical original event. The original event is not captured by the microphones and, therefore, does not exist on the recording. As a benchmark, "The original event" is more fantasy than reality. It is the listener imagining what the performance might have sounded like, and letting his perceptions here that in the recording, his suspension of disbelief aided or hindered by the recordist's skill.

Tim

Tim,

Many audio writers and scientists, including F. Toole, addressed this issue. Fortunately humans have a large background of "original events " and knowledge of the particular original event is not needed for recognizing the excellence, and provided the people doing the recording and the system create the needed quality sound reproduction the suspension of disbelief needed by the listener for his pleasure is possible with high success rates.
 

RogerD

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Phelonious Ponk

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Tim,

Many audio writers and scientists, including F. Toole, addressed this issue. Fortunately humans have a large background of "original events " and knowledge of the particular original event is not needed for recognizing the excellence, and provided the people doing the recording and the system create the needed quality sound reproduction the suspension of disbelief needed by the listener for his pleasure is possible with high success rates.

Mark your calendar, micro. I think we're actually in agreement.

Tim
 

jkeny

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Feb 9, 2012
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jkeny

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Is this a sign that the forum is becoming a singularity & all that will be left is a black hole ? :)
Escape now or be trapped forever
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Seriously, John, I don't think there's much chance of just you and I becoming a singularity, though the occasional agreement is refreshing.

Tim
 

jkeny

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Seriously, John, I don't think there's much chance of just you and I becoming a singularity, though the occasional agreement is refreshing.

Tim

No, I can't say I feel your gravitational pull :)
But maybe we can exchange electrons every now & then?
 

Phelonious Ponk

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No, I can't say I feel your gravitational pull :)
But maybe we can exchange electrons every now & then?

Sure. As long as you don't start telling me that the quality of my electrons would improve while passing through an audiophile cable. :)

Tim
 

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