If all you guys want to talk about is Blizzard, then the thread must be finished. I am hoping though everyone has other things to say. Let us manage the forum and not discuss membership actions/violations yourselves as that just makes things worse.
New Kronos review!
- Thread starter asiufy
- Start date
lets see...you have been a member here since Sept 2015 and have close to 2000 posts. No one has ever blathered this much on this site or any other I can think of in so little time. That's saying something.
We are only talking about him since he has successfully derailed this thread Amir. How about you doing your job and getting this crap to stop ?
Two more reviews, now of the entry-level Sparta 0.5:
http://enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0116/Kronos_Sparta_5_Turntable_Upgrade_Review.htm
http://absolutehiend.com/ahe_files/pdf/K05.pdf
This is the recently announced, upgradable "half Sparta". The first review actually goes in detail of the upgrade kit to full Sparta.
http://enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0116/Kronos_Sparta_5_Turntable_Upgrade_Review.htm
http://absolutehiend.com/ahe_files/pdf/K05.pdf
This is the recently announced, upgradable "half Sparta". The first review actually goes in detail of the upgrade kit to full Sparta.
Could someone explain why the Kronos designer states that additional isolation of his table will degrade performance? My suspended SME 30/12 uses a similar suspension approach to the Kronos, that is four suspension towers supporting the platter/sub chassis with rubber bands, and it benefits from the additional isolation of my ballasted Vibraplane, particularly in the lower frequencies.
Also, are the dual motors on the Kronos isolated from the platters or are they mounted to the sub chassis which also supports the platter?
EDIT: I took a closer look at the photos in the review. It seems as though the dual stacked motors are mounted/fixed rigidly to the bottom shelf (main chassis) and that the dual platter/sub chassis sandwich is rigid and hanging from the four suspension towers and thus isolated from the motors. If this is in fact correct, than that is a similar arrangement to the SME. The motors are fixed awhile the platters and sub chassis are free to move.
So then, if the arrangement is similar to that used by SME, I am curious why the turntable does not benefit from additional isolation like the SME does. Even the fully suspended TechDas AF1, according to some of its owners, benefits from an active isolation platform.
Also, are the dual motors on the Kronos isolated from the platters or are they mounted to the sub chassis which also supports the platter?
EDIT: I took a closer look at the photos in the review. It seems as though the dual stacked motors are mounted/fixed rigidly to the bottom shelf (main chassis) and that the dual platter/sub chassis sandwich is rigid and hanging from the four suspension towers and thus isolated from the motors. If this is in fact correct, than that is a similar arrangement to the SME. The motors are fixed awhile the platters and sub chassis are free to move.
So then, if the arrangement is similar to that used by SME, I am curious why the turntable does not benefit from additional isolation like the SME does. Even the fully suspended TechDas AF1, according to some of its owners, benefits from an active isolation platform.
Peter,
It's seems it doesn't matter if we talk TT's or Speakers...The manufacturers advise against it, yet when we try it for ourselves we hear the benefit. Imagine being the manufacturer and someone tells you your product sounds better using X isolation device...how would you feel/react ? This gets to the point of why for the most part manufacturers won't support or confirm the efficacy of isolation devices on their own products. That is how I see it any way. The old adage applies...YMMV.
The motors are attached to the Kronos plinth.
Attachments
well I had Gary from Genesis ask Nishakawa-san from TechDas the same question when he visitied him in japan regarding putting the AF1 on an active isolation platform. He replied not necessary. Well when I put my AF1 on the table stable active isolation table, the level of reproduction was brought to a new level(easy to hear). When the AF Zero come out with it's integrated stand, I would not be surprised if it had either a passive air or active piezo type isolation system built in to its stand just like the ones used for hi powered microscopes in labs.
That does make sense, Christian. I'm only aware of the Rockport, which used a variation of the air suspension lab tables and the very new table (name forgotten) that uses an integrated active isolation solution as the two examples of turntables that address ultimate integrated isolation solutions into their designs.
Though I have not done extensive experimentation, I think another benefit to the way I have my set up is that the SME motor controller is also isolated by being placed on the Vibraplane ballast shelf. This keeps floor born vibrations out of the controller more effectively than the four small rubber footers do. In both the SME and Kronos designs, it appears that the platters are isolated by the integrated isolation bands from the motor vibrations but the motor is rigidly fixed to the bottom shelf (the SME motor is actually on vinyl bushings for isolation) but that bottom shelf is not further isolated from the floor. His may be some of the benefit of my Vibraplane also and perhaps the motor on your TechDas, which I think is separated from the rest of your turntable.
Of course, the other possibility could simply be that the Vibraplane isolates lower than the stock Kronos and SME solutions and your Herzan isolates even lower and more effectively than that.
in my case the NVS tt designer had their own isolation platform.
but when I upgraded my speakers from the MM3's to the MM7's eventually I discovered that there were limitations to the type of feedback the designed in isolation could deal with.
how many turntable designers have speakers that can do 7hz at -3db and 3hz at -6db 8 feet from their turntable? none. so their opinion about the situation is not helpful.
you have to be situationally fluid and deal with your own reality.
if it sounds better with active isolation it is. would the Kronos Pro benefit from active isolation in certain systems? likely quite a bit. but maybe not as much in other systems.
I would only advise any tt owner to be open minded on cause and effect. I know I thought all of a sudden lots of pressings had distortion and i blamed the pressings or my set-up until it dawned on me what was happening.
but when I upgraded my speakers from the MM3's to the MM7's eventually I discovered that there were limitations to the type of feedback the designed in isolation could deal with.
how many turntable designers have speakers that can do 7hz at -3db and 3hz at -6db 8 feet from their turntable? none. so their opinion about the situation is not helpful.
you have to be situationally fluid and deal with your own reality.
if it sounds better with active isolation it is. would the Kronos Pro benefit from active isolation in certain systems? likely quite a bit. but maybe not as much in other systems.
I would only advise any tt owner to be open minded on cause and effect. I know I thought all of a sudden lots of pressings had distortion and i blamed the pressings or my set-up until it dawned on me what was happening.
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That is certainly a possibility, spaz. But stating that performance will be degraded is different from saying that performance may or may not benefit from placement on different platforms depending on the environment in which the table is to be used. I have a friend who owns this Kronos Pro Ltd. table and he has considered getting a better rack, like the HRS.
It may also be something as simple as cost and developing a design within a certain price point.
Does anyone know if the Kronos has hard or soft surfaces under the four footers?
Wow, those are some low frequencies. I can certainly see your point, Mike, and this makes a lot of sense. In my case with limited output only down to high 20's Hz, I think the added isolation on my amps and turntable addresses structural or floor born vibrations. I suppose your speakers are also rocking effecting your floor. Some of that feedback is airborne directly on your rack and turntable, but there may also be some traveling through your wood or concrete below those kinds of frequencies.
It is interesting that the new Audio Union Dohmann turntable actually licensed technology from minus K to build active isolation into the plinth itself. I guess the question is whether the implementation where it is full integrated and part of the design process yields better isolation performance than putting your TT onto a 3rd party device.
in my situation the distortion I heard was mainly in certain female vocals and cello and double bass. the MM7's also put out lots of mid bass energy with the -4- 11" woofers per side + the -4- 15" subwoofers per side. so it's not just deep frequencies although that capability results in a very linear bass spectrum. and those towers are 'right there' for the unified wave launch, verses subs at the rear farther away from a tt. kind of a perfect storm of energy looking for an innocent needle in groove to spank.
I like and respect A.J. Conti for many reasons, one of which is because he is an intellectually honest engineer. When I asked him if the sound of the Basis Inspiration turntable (which has an integral suspension) could be improved if placed on the Herzan, he said "yes, maybe about 5% better." (In the context of our theoretical ideal and perfectionistic WBF discussions 5% may be significant.)
the great thing about a Herzan active isolation shelf is that it is 500x as stiff as passive since it can stop. so, by it's nature, it cannot over dampen.
passive can only float since there is no reactive mechanism to stop. the best ones don't float as much. but with passive it's always a 'listen first, then decide if it helps'.
Thanks for that Ron. I guess that 5% will mean you will audition a Herzan (TS-140) risk free ?
I estimate the AFO improvement is around that 5% figure using the TS-140. That 5% definitely matters to me. Sometimes I forget to turn it on and while listening....maybe just a few minutes in I start wondering why it doesn't sound quite as good. Sure enough, I look over and see the TS-140 turned off.
I'll see if I can get my hands on a Herzan (TS-140 is the one to go?) and test the Kronos on it then.
We have ours on a regular Solid Steel rack.
We have ours on a regular Solid Steel rack.
They are right in socal area. Check the Herzan site to make sure the TS-140 dimensions fit the Kronos. The TS-300 will definitely fit it. You can demo it under no obligation...just pay shipping of a few hundred bucks if not with in driving distance.
http://www.herzan.com/products/active-vibration-control/ts-series.html#TS MODELS
Herzan LLC
23042 Alcalde Drive
Suite E
Laguna Hills, CA 92653
I don't see anyone advocating messing with the complex integral isolation of a SOTA TT. All I'm reporting on are owners placing turntable designs on separate racks and isolation platforms for better or worse results.
I don't know how to answer your question as I have not seen anyone discussing that that is what he/she is doing. Can you provide an example?
they are just right up the road from you in Irvine. let me know if I can help with that. Reid Whitney from Herzan is always been willing to demo them.
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