Next up: What is room pressurization?

I don't think you even need to hint at it. I think it's pretty much a given that tape has a higher absolute resolution. Does it have a higher practical resoltuion? Is there anything there that matters/is audible? Is Nyquist just a theory or does it work that way? The jury is out on that, and in the meantime we all hear what we hear. I'm not sure, however, what any of this has to do with hearing this pressurization, from the media, when there is no recording playing. I'm not doubting that some experience a "more believable ambient field" from this phenomenon. I'm trying to get to what it is.

Tim

PS: Oh, and by the way...I do not want to do any math.
 
Hi

I am not sure it works that way... Tape parameters are well known as well as the information it can contain... At the present state of things Analog Tape is surpassed by digital,on paper, and this is known. If you want to capture something with a range of 100 dB with a frequenc yrange from DC to 192 Khz it won't fit on tape in analog form, it will fit on your HDD or similar tape in digital however...

That has nothing to do with Pressutrization, the phenomenon that some people are talking about which by the way I have not experienced is not pressurization
 
Hi

I am not sure it works that way... Tape parameters are well known as well as the information it can contain... At the present state of things Analog Tape is surpassed by digital,on paper, and this is known. If you want to capture something with a range of 100 dB with a frequenc yrange from DC to 192 Khz it won't fit on tape in analog form, it will fit on your HDD or similar tape in digital however...

That has nothing to do with Pressutrization, the phenomenon that some people are talking about which by the way I have not experienced is not pressurization

Yeah, but you're talking about actual math, Frantz. I'm referring to the romantic notion that digital, regardless of its resolution rate, is a mere sample of analog, that analog has infinite resolution. There is a lot of denial in that romance, for sure, but I'm trying to be a kinder, gentler Tim here. Cut me some slack.

Tim
 
The phenomenon of Room Pressurization is known and not as prevalent as many would think.. Good room sealing at the frequencies where the pressurization occurs is the requisite there ... and the woofer loading ... The vast majority of subwoofers are either sealed, bass reflex or bandpass , few are trly dipoles so they can under the right conditions (sealed rooms, substantial woofer displacement and of course right material) pressurize the room.
I am somewhat beating my head on the subject and will have to drop it but I know that Room Pressurization is less common than people think and it shouldn't be confused with room gain , a completely different phenomenon, or good bass response which is what you are describing here ...
Wish I had the command of someone like Tom Danley or Mark Seaton on the subject.. Guys where are you !! :)

Trying to scan 12 pages of posts from only ~24 hrs reminds me of the waning appreciation for brevity... especially with passionate audiophiles. :p <kettle meet pot>

I do agree the understanding of this phrase is as nebulous as "tight bass". :rolleyes:

As a few have hinted at in their posts, the ear/body doesn't directly know the difference of a low frequency sine wave being reproduced in a small bunker vs. the great outdoors. We do very well in observing acoustic intensity vs. frequency and time, along with differences between bass observed via earbuds vs. reproduced in a room. There are of course real spacial ques that come into play, especially with wide band (transient/percussive) and harmonically rich (organ) sounds.

The reality is that with enough horsepower it is possible to recreate the same experience outdoors either directly or with the right processing to mimic the acoustic aberrations of a room. I've personally observed such cases with big outdoor systems, particularly when I helped Keith Yates set up an earlier iteration of his backyard theater. I'll try an catch up with more of the thread through the day to see if I can add any further thoughts...
 
Crime of the Century was one of my triggers against poor CD sound. For particular reasons, "Hide in Your Shell" had a special meaning for me - it was released in 74, these were epic youth years. But much later the sound of the regular CD was so poor that I was really shocked - now I know that it was in part due to poor mastering. But I still have not been able to listen to a decent digital version of it - but I never listened to the Mofi CD.

+1

Unfortunately, a lot of '70s rock was re-mastered for early CD. And very poor mastering at that. That's why I'm always on the look out for first pressings on vinyl. I don't like some of the UHQR's, but Crime of the Century must have been one of the best ones that they did.... that, and Dark Side of the Moon. I don't have the Mofi Crime of the Century, but I do have Breakfast in America. If BiA is anything to go by, I'm not paying the $200 people are asking for CotC.
 
The reality is that with enough horsepower it is possible to recreate the same experience outdoors either directly or with the right processing to mimic the acoustic aberrations of a room. I've personally observed such cases with big outdoor systems, particularly when I helped Keith Yates set up an earlier iteration of his backyard theater. ...

Agree with you Mark. Many many years ago, I attend a Jethro Tull concert outdoors. About half way through, a jet plane flew overhead at a low altitude, Tull noticed this and told the crowd that the next plane would be drowned out by his rig! Sure enough, the next plane was inaudible, BUT the stadium was shall we say "bass rich"....My ears still tingle to this day:D
 
Originally Posted by microstrip
Crime of the Century was one of my triggers against poor CD sound. For particular reasons, "Hide in Your Shell" had a special meaning for me - it was released in 74, these were epic youth years. But much later the sound of the regular CD was so poor that I was really shocked - now I know that it was in part due to poor mastering. But I still have not been able to listen to a decent digital version of it - but I never listened to the Mofi CD.

You don't like the 2001 remasters? They are alot better. I have the Mofi vinyl and it's really good.

Rob:)
 
+1

Unfortunately, a lot of '70s rock was re-mastered for early CD. And very poor mastering at that. That's why I'm always on the look out for first pressings on vinyl. I don't like some of the UHQR's, but Crime of the Century must have been one of the best ones that they did.... that, and Dark Side of the Moon. I don't have the Mofi Crime of the Century, but I do have Breakfast in America. If BiA is anything to go by, I'm not paying the $200 people are asking for CotC.

Maybe even more to the point, a lot of 70s rock was very heavily multi-tracked, over-dubbed and bounced (boys with toys...) and the low-level grunge build up can be pretty excessive. Some of it sounds good, but it took a really clean master, by the standards of the day, for it to make the transition to digital easily. The machines and processes got better, though, and by the time you got to the late 70s/early 80s, the multi-tracked recordings sound a lot better. And the understanding of what to do with the remastering to digital got better too. I have multiple masters of Yes and King Crimson cds that sound completely different. Unfortunately, sometimes you have to choose between clarity and dynamics because the re-masters are so damned loud. The KC stuff is, for the most part, better than Yes. Less layering maybe?

Totally off-subject, but isn't it funny how Prog was a guilty pleasure for years and now its ok again? Glad I'm too old to care about fashion...

Tim
 
I have multiple masters of Yes and King Crimson cds that sound completely different.

Have you tried the King Crimson 40th DVDA's?? They are well worth it.

Rob
 
Trying to scan 12 pages of posts from only ~24 hrs reminds me of the waning appreciation for brevity... especially with passionate audiophiles. :p <kettle meet pot>

I do agree the understanding of this phrase is as nebulous as "tight bass". :rolleyes:

As a few have hinted at in their posts, the ear/body doesn't directly know the difference of a low frequency sine wave being reproduced in a small bunker vs. the great outdoors. We do very well in observing acoustic intensity vs. frequency and time, along with differences between bass observed via earbuds vs. reproduced in a room. There are of course real spacial ques that come into play, especially with wide band (transient/percussive) and harmonically rich (organ) sounds.

The reality is that with enough horsepower it is possible to recreate the same experience outdoors either directly or with the right processing to mimic the acoustic aberrations of a room. I've personally observed such cases with big outdoor systems, particularly when I helped Keith Yates set up an earlier iteration of his backyard theater. I'll try an catch up with more of the thread through the day to see if I can add any further thoughts...

I'm with ya on this Mark; take the room out of the pressure zone,
out of the equation when you talk about true pressurization.

The room is space, and in that space there is air. And air is everywhere.
... Except in deep space.
 
Have you tried the King Crimson 40th DVDA's?? They are well worth it.

Rob

I have not. I don't have a player for them :). I have a couple of the CD reissues, and they're good; worth it for the early material, but for my favorite period -- Larks Tongues in Aspic/Starless and Bible Black/Red -- the old CDs (long since ripped to my hard drive) are actually very good. The records from that period are pretty simple and straightforward, not a lot of layering and overdubbing, and the old CDs maintain the full dynamic range.

Tim
 
The 40th Anniversary issues are considerably better. Even ITCOTCK sounds fantastic.
 
King Crimson; huge fan here! :b

...Got all their LPs. 'Islands' has the most profound emotional impact to me.
It is so powerful in my soul's depth that I simply cannot delineate its true aura, awe.
Just indescribable!
 
Tim, ITCOTCK 40th Anniversary issue DVDA are worth getting - you can easily rip them using either dvdaexplorer or DVD Audio Extractor.

I think the reissues I spoke of are 40th anniversary, but they're cds -- I'm not sure as the discs are packed away and the jewel boxes are long gone. I have ITCOTKK and In the Wake of Poseidon from that re-issue series. Very good masters. If the later material is improved as much, I need to check them out.

Tim
 
King Crimson; huge fan here! :b

...Got all their LPs. 'Islands' has the most profound emotional impact to me.
It is so powerful in my soul's depth that I simply cannot delineate its true aura, awe.
Just indescribable!

I'm also a big fan.... and wondering if the original Island Pink first UK issue is worth searching out for. I have high-rez remaster from the 40th Anniversary DVD-A and the Island pink rim Island LP (which is far better than the A&M label).

Sorry for the OT - to bring it on topic, I don't get the sense of "presense" with ITCOTCK. I still don't get room "pressurization" if it is not just bass related.
 
This would be a great explanation if we were talking about the recording, but a bunch of folks here are not. They are talking about something that only exists in specific media. They are talking about feeling/hearing this "pressurization" before tracks begin, between tracks, even before the needle hits the record or the tape reaches the recording. They are hearing (we're not talking about deep bass or high spls here so I will now drop the "feeling") something that is inherent in the media when there is no recording present.
Above emphasis mine. No, not before the needle hits the record, only while the needle is on the record. Bruce touched on this in an earlier message.

I'm afraid it's not "room ambience that people characterize as pressurization," because in most of these cases, there is no room ambience present on the media when the phenomenon is heard. It is noise, heard as room ambience, characterized as pressurization. It's heard before the needle touches the vinyl? It's heard before and between tracks? This is all it can be. There is no other rational explanation.
In reading all of this thread, it's clear there are two different impressions of a pressurized room. The one that is a result of very low frequencies at high SPL can cause something like it (you feel pressure on your body before you hear it) but that's not what I relate pressurization to.

Actually, it isn't really even pressurization, it's a feeling of being captive in the sound stage. It almost pulls on you. One such cause is felt on a system with good controlled low frequency and phase response, that is playing vinyl, usually on a pivoted type arm which tend to boost and blend low frequency. The low frequency I'm referring to (and it's low, but also in the mid-range) is the noise of a very quiet groove wall. That is entirely vertical 'modulation' which places it out of phase left to right. It never becomes part of the music because it's not in the left-right sound stage, it sounds as if it's wrapped around the soundstage, and tends to enhance the way the sound stage is presented. The whole image becomes quite captive and makes you listen. If there are tick and pops or groove wall crackles also present, it seriously diminishes the effect. But a truly quiet groove has a very special sound.

Likewise, in some recordings which really sound 'close' to you, you'll experience that same captiveness, especially if there are low frequencies present that are the result of multiple instrument positions on the stage, and are very musical to other instruments. It takes a pretty high resolution system to reveal it. Add a solid groove wall sound to that and it really pulls on you. Using a single subwoofer will really detract from the effect.

I seldom hear this on vinyl any more since I've been using the Ortofon A90 on my ET2. It doesn't boost the low frequency information at all, so the groove sound isn't projected that much. But if I use my Zyx Airy 3 X SB, it starts to show some projection and is more captive in that range, but is not quite as clear as the Ortofon overall.

The presentation of R2R tape is a little different. LF is usually a little deeper and positionally correct, but there is also a component of hiss, which is a random noise in each channel, with no (or little) center channel coherence. You may not directly be aware of it, but it tends to 'wrap' the sound in a soft blanket which makes it sound more captive. Too much hiss and it's totally in the way and detracts from the effect. This also assumes a really phase coherent playback chain, especially in the speakers and room.

Since I've been using the B&W N801's, which are NOT time aligned (damnit), I don't hear either captivating effect as dominant as I have in the past, but it shows up occasionally.

I'm sure this won't make sense to some, but may ring some bells to others.

In one of my older systems it was so pronounced that I used to refer to it as 'walking into a picture' when you entered the room. Very striking.

--Bill
 
Elaboration into Pressurization & its various interpretations and meanings ...

Can the first original music listening experience be relive again with the same emotional impact,
or even from a higher intellectual & emotional plateau?

Methink not!

Technologically wise, yes, by a better quality remastering.
But from your first listening experience, no!

___________________

Pressurization can also be used to describe an emotional 'pressure', in your guts, an uneasy feeling of some kind of intellectual incertitude, or dream sequence intertwined with reality, a sense of hallucination ...

And yes, I am totally serious.
 
Above emphasis mine. No, not before the needle hits the record, only while the needle is on the record. Bruce touched on this in an earlier message.

In reading all of this thread, it's clear there are two different impressions of a pressurized room. The one that is a result of very low frequencies at high SPL can cause something like it (you feel pressure on your body before you hear it) but that's not what I relate pressurization to.

Actually, it isn't really even pressurization, it's a feeling of being captive in the sound stage. It almost pulls on you. One such cause is felt on a system with good controlled low frequency and phase response, that is playing vinyl, usually on a pivoted type arm which tend to boost and blend low frequency. The low frequency I'm referring to (and it's low, but also in the mid-range) is the noise of a very quiet groove wall. That is entirely vertical 'modulation' which places it out of phase left to right. It never becomes part of the music because it's not in the left-right sound stage, it sounds as if it's wrapped around the soundstage, and tends to enhance the way the sound stage is presented. The whole image becomes quite captive and makes you listen. If there are tick and pops or groove wall crackles also present, it seriously diminishes the effect. But a truly quiet groove has a very special sound.

Likewise, in some recordings which really sound 'close' to you, you'll experience that same captiveness, especially if there are low frequencies present that are the result of multiple instrument positions on the stage, and are very musical to other instruments. It takes a pretty high resolution system to reveal it. Add a solid groove wall sound to that and it really pulls on you. Using a single subwoofer will really detract from the effect.

I seldom hear this on vinyl any more since I've been using the Ortofon A90 on my ET2. It doesn't boost the low frequency information at all, so the groove sound isn't projected that much. But if I use my Zyx Airy 3 X SB, it starts to show some projection and is more captive in that range, but is not quite as clear as the Ortofon overall.

The presentation of R2R tape is a little different. LF is usually a little deeper and positionally correct, but there is also a component of hiss, which is a random noise in each channel, with no (or little) center channel coherence. You may not directly be aware of it, but it tends to 'wrap' the sound in a soft blanket which makes it sound more captive. Too much hiss and it's totally in the way and detracts from the effect. This also assumes a really phase coherent playback chain, especially in the speakers and room.

Since I've been using the B&W N801's, which are NOT time aligned (damnit), I don't hear either captivating effect as dominant as I have in the past, but it shows up occasionally.

I'm sure this won't make sense to some, but may ring some bells to others.

In one of my older systems it was so pronounced that I used to refer to it as 'walking into a picture' when you entered the room. Very striking.

--Bill

Actually, I think it was Bruce who said he could hear it before the needle hit the groove. I never have. My experience is similar to yours, though history -- I've heard/felt this the second the needle touched vinyl. It is very subtle, but so is what it sounds like, to me: an empty room. But I suppose one man's "walking into the picture" is anothers "what's that I hear that's not music?" because I have no nostalgia for it. I was happy to hear it go.

Like I said before, "...noise, heard as room ambience, characterized as pressurization."

Tim
 

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