Noise. That damned demon you may not even know about...

[Holmz]

Example of what?
This is not a do-dad, nor a dont-mom.
Just sharing my experience. Other are free to try it, or not.

What plot do you refer to? The plot thickens .... a plot of land .... a Bode plot.

Cleaning connectors in my system, to my ears, reduced background noise when no signal is playing. The reduced background noise is quite noticeable with my all tube 70 dB gain phono stage (no record playing). The cleaning also improves high frequency signals (the shimmer of cymbals, piano harmonics) and perception of ambient cues (the sound of the sound in the recording venue) when listening to a record.

In my system, either the phono stage is connected to the amps or the CD player is connected to the amps. This eliminates any cross-coupling. The digital side is on its own separate dedicated circuit to further reduce any coupling. All carefully planned and implemented to eliminate ground loops.

I have also chased down some more problematic sources - and resolved them. Had noise from shop or industrial equipment on the incoming AC and had noise coupling from the motor of the exhaust fan in the kitchen. Some of the solutions to these problems were in an earlier post.

If you want to know if knowing the source of the noise is of interest - just ask.

No I meant a lot of other do-dads earlier in the thread, and a mix of d-dads seeming like a calderon of solutions.

Your contact cleaning makes sense, and was well presented as to how it works, and the only chin-scratching question I came up with was whether it would affect a measurement of the noise floor like I sometimes do when moving cables around.
I.e whether it is mostly an effect when the signal is larger… So it was a musing question out loud.

 

[Holmz]

Good morning Holmz,

There is noise on the analog side as well. It is just not nearly so bad as the digital side. Chord Company (Disclosure: I represent them) just released an analog ground device. Roy Gregory was pretty enthusiastic about it. You might want to try it and see if it improves your music.

Ground Pounder? - Gy8

The Chord Company PhonoARAY

gy8.eu

Thanks for that!
I’ll keep an eye open when I am in the city next (Perth).

Are you referring to ethernet filters? If so there is a whole thread on this topic.

It is not always the case in audio that the more you spend the better the performance, but in the case of ethernet filters this seems to be true. I have tried the majority of ethernet filters and the effect seems pretty linear with price. Here is the same list I posted in that thread. English Electric now has a plus model in the $900 range but I have not test it yet. Also worth noting that multiple filters work. Think of each one as removing a percentage of noise. So perhaps one of the filters removes 20% leaving 80%. Adding another filter that removes 50% would leave 40% and so on. I am not necessarily suggesting that you add 10 filters but rather that you can get a few and assess the effect -- positive or negative.

DX Engineering ISO Plus 2 -- $82
iFi LAN Silencer -- $89
Stack Audio Smooth LAN -- $305
English Electric EE1 -- 300 Euro
Aardvark Classic -- $500
Aardvark Ultra -- $900
CAD Ethernet Control -- $1250

I suppose I am marking this as a place holder in case I get serious about digital.

I am sort of more prone to seeing the noise go down on a plot.
And without much in the system in terms of digital, I am not sure whether I have a lot of noise to begin with.

Certainly when I hooked up a laptop to the system, all hell seemed to break loose… but I started out using the DAC as an ADC.
I then hooked up the DAC output to the premap, which added some more grounding through the extra XLR connections. It was a mandatory step in order to get the noise down, for using the ADC side of the DAC even though I was not using the DAC as a source.
Maybe that is somewhat akin to a NUC running Roon, and the problems that people get plagued by?
I cannot recall the exact amount of noise reduction, but I think that the extra XLRs from the DAC output brought down the noisefloor on the plot by ~20dB. It was still not stunning, but it was in a better direction.

I sort of just gave up using a computer to stream out to the DAC, and use the iPad to steam into the DAC with a cable, so it is somewhat like a floating ground without the iPad charging.
or I go in via Bluetooth to the AVR. These are mostly for podcasts , audiobooks, and light listening.

 

[Kingrex]

The other thing I do for noise is to clean all connectors, plugs, jacks, IEC receptacles, cable pins, tube pins, tube sockets twice a year with Flitz and Kontak. The reduction in background noise afterwards always amazes me. It removes oxidation and leaves a clean surface for improved contact and conduction. Works on amps, preamps, speaker terminals, CD player, etc.

It takes a day to do, but it is really worth the effort. This shows the amount of oxidation picked up by the Q-tip and pipe cleaners.

View attachment 148240

How much time between applications is that pile of qtips.

 

[oldvinyl]

How much time between applications is that pile of qtips.

6 months

 

[oldvinyl]

No I meant a lot of other do-dads earlier in the thread, and a mix of d-dads seeming like a calderon of solutions.

Your contact cleaning makes sense, and was well presented as to how it works, and the only chin-scratching question I came up with was whether it would affect a measurement of the noise floor like I sometimes do when moving cables around.
I.e whether it is mostly an effect when the signal is larger… So it was a musing question out loud.

There is a noticeable absence of background noise when amp and phono stage are on without a record playing. So yes, it is affecting noise floor. As to whether it can be measured so your eyes can see the difference, I would not venture a guess.

It also has a noticeable effect when music is playing, as previously described. Affecting the noise floor will change signal/noise ratio.

Cleaning up the RCA, XLR and speaker connections also improve the signal.

These are all minute effects, but they add up.

 

[Schuess]

One of my audio systems includes a Balanced Audio Technology (BAT) vacuum tube preamplifier feeding BAT vacuum tube monoblocks, which power vintage JBL L300 Summit speakers. The system is objectively noisy, especially compared to my main audio system using transistor-based amplification and modern speakers. Nevertheless, I relish the listening experience. To get the most out of it, I spent money on products and services from Acoustic Sciences Corporation (ASC). The result is an ideal room reverberation time, minimal frequency peaks and dips, and a subjectively calm (but not dead) environment. The forgoing benefits led to me accepting the idling noise from the JBLs. The system really kicks butt.

 

[sbnx]

One of my audio systems includes a Balanced Audio Technology (BAT) vacuum tube preamplifier feeding BAT vacuum tube monoblocks, which power vintage JBL L300 Summit speakers. The system is objectively noisy, especially compared to my main audio system using transistor-based amplification and modern speakers. Nevertheless, I relish the listening experience. To get the most out of it, I spent money on products and services from Acoustic Sciences Corporation (ASC). The result is an ideal room reverberation time, minimal frequency peaks and dips, and a subjectively calm (but not dead) environment. The forgoing benefits led to me accepting the idling noise from the JBLs. The system really kicks butt.

Curious, what type of music do you listen to mostly on the JBL's?

 

[Amir]

Noise.

It permeates. It infiltrates. It is a deficiency that many here (and elsewhere) know nothing about.

There is a difference between a grey background and a calm, completely black void of any sound, within images, instruments or sweet nothings/whispers.

There are many different ways to achieve this. If you understand what "noise" actually is?

Tell us how you thwarted it.

Tom

Very good question.

This is very very important subject.

I do not use computer playback (or music server) .
Imagine the speakers are in proper position.

The main source of noise (75%) is AC power .
25% remain comes from Vibration, Earth wire noise, Ground loops, RF, EMI.

High end industry has no proper solution for AC power quality so if you use AC filters you will get less noise at the expense of micro dynamics.
The best AC regenerator I have seen is Pure Power 3000+ , it’s power is not enough for high power amplifiers but perfect for low power tube systems.
High power Isolation transformers (over 10kVA) like Denkenseiki seems to have less negative side effects on sound quality but finally isolation transformers are not the ultimate solution.

For Vibration I use wellfloat.

For RF I think I should try to use RF absorbers/reflectors in my room.


For earth wire we should have dedicated earth in the yard.

Removing ground loops will help alot .

 

[Schuess]

Curious, what type of music do you listen to mostly on the JBL's?

Mostly 70s classic and 90s alternative rock, chamber, indie folk, jazz fusion, and progressive metal - stuff that plays to the strengths of the JBLs. I played several Supertramp records last weekend, which scratched an itch.

 

[oldvinyl]

The main source of noise (75%) is AC power .
25% remain comes from Vibration, Earth wire noise, Ground loops, RF, EMI.

We can further break this down:
- conducted emissions
- incoming AC power (from transmission lines)
- from other devices on the same circuit (refrigerator, laundry, dishwasher, etc)
- from other stereo equipment on the same circuit (CD player power supply noise)

- radiated emissions
- from external RF sources (cell tower, TV or radio station, cell phones, computers, etc)
- generated by the stereo equipment (switching power supply, CD/SACD player processing circuits (uP, FPGA, ASIC, etc)
- from unshielded (or poorly shielded) power cables in the system

- shot noise - in all components and electronic circuit devices

- circuit noise - from poor or inadequate grounding, or in close proximity to a device susceptible to the noise

- tube rush (for vacuum tube equipment) low-level background noise from electron flow; gotta love those thermionic emissions

- mechanical noise - coupled from the acoustic energy in the room or shaking the floor and thus the stand and equipment.
Mechanical noise can also couple from transformers and other high power high energy AC or switching devices.

So, we can get noise from the environment coming in on the AC power, noise from other devices plugged into the same circuit, noise from other large electrical loads on the same phase of the panel, noise from other components in the system, noise from the electronic devices (passive and active) within each component of the system, mechanical noise from external or internal vibration.

In my experience, incoming AC power noise can be reduced without affecting dynamics with a parallel filter (such as Audience) that siphons off the noise. Isolation transformers need to be sized to not impede current flow (big). Grounding the incoming AC power correctly and making sure to connect stereo equipment only to receptacles on a dedicated circuits goes a long way to prevent ground loops.

Some of the above noise is mitigated by the designer of the audio gear - especially when they are skilled at it. Circuit layout, transformer selection, component types/selection and sizing all make their contribution. Much of the noise is drained to ground, hence my fascination with keeping electrical contacts clean.

RF (or EMI) is harder to deal with since some susceptible devices (low output cartridge) are hard to shield. 3M EMI absorbers can be used to line the inside of audio gear (but contact the manufacturer, be extremely careful to unplug the device, be careful to attach it so that it does not come into contact with any components or power. I used this inside a CD/SACD player - but frankly, could not tell if it did much.

It's a great topic, and as some have pointed out, figuring out the source of the noise is essential to determining how to reduce it. There's lots of threads on this forum about network equipment and streamers and how to address their inherent noise.

And yes, I am sure there is more .... much more.

 

[Kingrex]

Some of the comments by Amir and Oldvinyl I.agree with. Others I believe are inaccurate.

 

[oldvinyl]

Some of the comments by Amir and Oldvinyl I.agree with. Others I believe are inaccurate.

say more ... lots more

 

[Lee]

Very good question.

This is very very important subject.

I do not use computer playback (or music server) .
Imagine the speakers are in proper position.

The main source of noise (75%) is AC power .
25% remain comes from Vibration, Earth wire noise, Ground loops, RF, EMI.

High end industry has no proper solution for AC power quality so if you use AC filters you will get less noise at the expense of micro dynamics.
The best AC regenerator I have seen is Pure Power 3000+ , it’s power is not enough for high power amplifiers but perfect for low power tube systems.
High power Isolation transformers (over 10kVA) like Denkenseiki seems to have less negative side effects on sound quality but finally isolation transformers are not the ultimate solution.

For Vibration I use wellfloat.

For RF I think I should try to use RF absorbers/reflectors in my room.


For earth wire we should have dedicated earth in the yard.

Removing ground loops will help alot .

A lot of good stuff here. I do wonder if it is 75% power. My recent experience suggests grounding, RF, and power are all equally important.

 

[Schuess]

A lot of good stuff here. I do wonder if it is 75% power. My recent experience suggests grounding, RF, and power are all equally important.

Agreed - good stuff. I add that poor room acoustics worsen the signal-to-noise ratio measured at the listener position, so it’s on my list of offenders.

 

[Kingrex]

say more ... lots more

Most of what you say is accurate.
I don't find you can hide from noise generated by household appliances on the same phase. The neutral is a critical wire. Probably the most important. It is shared with all phases. I don't worry about what is on the same phase as audio as the neutral ties it all together. That is not to say some devices don't indeed impact audio. Motors most certainly can. The most irritating is when a motor turns off and send a POP noise through the audio system. Very hard to fix. Tossing the offending motor in the trash is usually the solution. Filters have a hard time with motor noise. Its low harmonics that walk through most every filter. Most filter don't start to do anything till about 10,000 to 50,000 hertz. A 3rd and 5th harmonic on a 120 power line are 360 and 600 hertz. The higher harmonics in the thousand and above come from smps, drives, and other devices that slice the sine wave or use a device like a Fet to control power. That noise and their harmonics are easier to filter.

I like Torus isolation transformers. They are not a catch all. And they do have to be sized and fed properly. Yet I find they very rarely if ever negatively impact the sound. Some other filters do. Even parallel filters. But its very system dependent and what you apply the filter too. Its very easy to over filter.

The main source of noise (75%) is AC power .
25% remain comes from Vibration, Earth wire noise, Ground loops, RF, EMI.

High end industry has no proper solution for AC power quality so if you use AC filters you will get less noise at the expense of micro dynamics.
The best AC regenerator I have seen is Pure Power 3000+ , it’s power is not enough for high power amplifiers but perfect for low power tube systems.
High power Isolation transformers (over 10kVA) like Denkenseiki seems to have less negative side effects on sound quality but finally isolation transformers are not the ultimate solution.


For RF I think I should try to use RF absorbers/reflectors in my room.


For earth wire we should have dedicated earth in the yard.

Removing ground loops will help alot .

I would not assign a number to a percentage of where noise comes from. Every house is different. Some have low RF and high utility noise. Others the opposite.

I think filters used correctly are a necessity. Again, I like Torus for most all devices. But a lot of people like other filters. And other filters can do an exceptional job on signal equipment as well as utility data power devices.
No filter on the power line will help RF. That takes shielding. But shielding can ruin the sound too. Go step by step and listen along the way. You can overdo it. Just like you can over filter.

I think Pure Power has way to much negative press from what I have read. I don't know why. I read the sweet spot was the 1500 version. The larger ones collapsed dynamics. I do not know anything about the inverter inside. My assumption is its a small high frequency device. The large Stromtank S5000 says the inverter is 750 watts. That puny. Around 6 amps. I don't know what they can fit in a Pure Power. But I doubt much larger. I believe you need a robust inverter that is measured to have low noise. I like Victron and Exeltech. 2000 to 3000 watt inverters. Below 3% thd. More like 1.8%. But they don't come in a ready made box, like Pure Power or Stromtank.

I never allow a dedicate earth in the yard. For one, the earth ground has almost no bearing on noise in the system. It may have 0. It shunts surges to ground. But it can also work opposite. As in, Lightning hitting the earth near your home will run up the dedicate ground going to audio, as well as up the grounds attached to your utility. They are going to be dissimilar in voltage and current due to the high resistance in the earth. They may be a good 100,000 volt different. That voltage has a good chance of racing through your audio equipment as they meet each other. It will blow out and circuit boards in your gear. Don't do it. I can get many papers from industrial sites that though the same and ground equipment in the field, only to have lightning burn out the control boards. They finally learned the proper place for earth ground is as close to the utility demarcation as possible. End of story.