Noise. That damned demon you may not even know about...

[sbnx]

I think Tom is talking about noise in general and not just digital noise. However, digital is extremely noisy by nature so this is a great place to start removing noise from a system. There are several types of noise which have different entry points into a system.

Everything in an audio system effects everything else. I had a conversation with a gentleman a few weeks ago who listens to 90% vinyl. I told him if that is what I did, then I would turn off all of my digital components -- streamer, dac, etc. These components are connected to the same ground and the same preamp so they are effecting the noise floor of the analog rig.

One of the surprises to me a few years ago was how much the ethernet affects ripped files. I once largely ignored my network stuff becasue I only really stream to find new music. If there is something I like, I purchase the CD and rip it. Then purchased a reasonable audiophile grade switch. Then I started playing with other network things. To my shock, ripped files sound better when action is taken to mitigate ethernet noise. I believe the reason for this is the ethernet is injecting noise into the streamer/server regardless if music is played throught it or not.

 

[Elliot G.]

I think Tom is talking about noise in general and not just digital noise. However, digital is extremely noisy by nature so this is a great place to start removing noise from a system. There are several types of noise which have different entry points into a system.

Everything in an audio system effects everything else. I had a conversation with a gentleman a few weeks ago who listens to 90% vinyl. I told him if that is what I did, then I would turn off all of my digital components -- streamer, dac, etc. These components are connected to the same ground and the same preamp so they are effecting the noise floor of the analog rig.

One of the surprises to me a few years ago was how much the ethernet affects ripped files. I once largely ignored my network stuff becasue I only really stream to find new music. If there is something I like, I purchase the CD and rip it. Then purchased a reasonable audiophile grade switch. Then I started playing with other network things. To my shock, ripped files sound better when action is taken to mitigate ethernet noise. I believe the reason for this is the ethernet is injecting noise into the streamer/server regardless if music is played throught it or not.

I spent a day with Grant Samuelson from Shunyata a while back and we went through various areas where there is noise and where noise is generated. I was amazed at some of what was possible to remove and how much more of the music was available once these sources are addressed. I think people have an idea of what can happen with a power cord and that is big but only the beginning. They do a lot of professional work with Medical facilities and also with recording studios where noise is a huge issue and so this is a priority in Mr. Gabriel's designs.

 

[SuperDave]

A good electrical foundation is important, dedicated lines instead of a shared circuit with lighting and a refrigerator limit noise pollution in my stereo. My Tripoint grounding station lowered the noise floor even more, still sounds very dynamic even at low volume.

 

[Holmz]

It sounds like your focused on digital noise. Not noise in general. Like I noted. Having a ethernet cable plugged in or disconnected has no bearing on the sound from my tape, vinyl or digital stores on my server.
My streaming is my lowest quality source. My tape absolutely destroys my streaming and digitally stores files.

There are many threads on digital noise and how to remove it.

Is the thread about general noise or digital streaming noise?

Amen to ^all that^.

I did not even know what people were talking about until I plugged in a DAC.
And digital is not main playback thing I use when I really want to listen.

 

[Lee]

So, let me clarify a bit on the noise I am talking about. It's a combination of noise floor, room minimum dB level, RFI, EMI, leakage current, jitter, Allan deviation, reflections within the room, timing variances within the 1's and 0's (whether it be immediate, misread, short or long), along with noise that rides the incoming A/C waveform, or if you stream? Through the incoming cable.

This noise is not the same as vinyl surface noise or tube noise, although you want to try and keep those as low as possible as well.

I used to listen to my CDP and think that there was no noise. This was with a Marantz SA-7S1 reference player. Two years ago, as I really got into improving every aspect of my streaming rig, I started to slowly discover that streaming started sounding cleaner than physical music. WHAT?

So, I started looking into why this would be....as I never had any issues with CD's before. Especially with the Marantz. I learned a lot about the "noises", how they manifested themself, where they came from, what gear I could use or utilize to get rid of it and what caused what, what affected what and how to eliminate as much of this noise as possible.

I wouldn't have....or probably wouldn't have ever known any of this for years to come, had it not been for a cheap, $14 ethernet cable upgrade. That lead to me learning about what E cables did. Then there was the Muon Pro.

Geez, I hated that thing for the first week or two...but after that, my audio journey really took off. That lead to me upgrading my clock, which lead to me upgrading my CDP to a transport and dedicated DAC.

Had it not been for my streaming journey taking off like it did, I would still be happily listening to that same noise I have listened to all my life. That transport was the last piece of gear I bought. Since then, every new addition to the rig has been nothing but things that help the rig eliminate any and every type of noise.

From the Purons, to shielded (double and triple shielded) cables, to the Snubway and MC....every purchase since then attacks noise. Literally no more of the gear merry go 'round. Doing that really exposed what the gear I already had.....well, what it actually could do.

I would like to think I have a pretty decent system in the whole grand scheme of things. Not that it's a competition or anything....I know full well that there are many systems out there that make my system look like a blue light K-mart special. That's all fine and dandy, to each their own. But with that said, I haven't heard a system....any system do so many things so well, across all frequencies and volume levels, with so many genres of music so cleanly, effortlessly and with such blackness in-between the images. All this with no boundaries within the room, other than height. In other words, I have yet to hear a sound come from directly above my head or beneath my listening chair.

I don't think it's the gear that does this. I think it's because of the loss of noise.

A question was raised elsewhere that got me thinking tonight. The question was two parts. How do you know when you are done? That was one part. The other part was, are you an audiophile or a music lover?

I think my answer to that is this. Now that the noise is gone? I may now be done being an audiophile because all I hear now is the music. That's all I hear now....and it's radiantly shining a small slice of audio heaven on Earth for me.

I cannot emphasize enough to all of you (even if you think you have no noise) to thwart any hint of noise from distracting you from what is possible.

Tom

Great post. There is Schumann resonance as well.

 

[Lee]

I spent a day with Grant Samuelson from Shunyata a while back and we went through various areas where there is noise and where noise is generated. I was amazed at some of what was possible to remove and how much more of the music was available once these sources are addressed. I think people have an idea of what can happen with a power cord and that is big but only the beginning. They do a lot of professional work with Medical facilities and also with recording studios where noise is a huge issue and so this is a priority in Mr. Gabriel's designs.

Grant showed me how to properly ground the system. I couldn’t believe what a difference it made. Caelin and Grant suggested the Gemini on the router to condition and ground it. That was a significant improvement too.

 

[Holmz]

…
Everything in an audio system affects everything else. I had a conversation with a gentleman a few weeks ago who listens to 90% vinyl. I told him if that is what I did, then I would turn off all of my digital components -- streamer, dac, etc. These components are connected to the same ground and the same preamp so they are effecting the noise floor of the analog rig.
…

Ah… <light bulb>

Maybe this explains why I am often perplexed with the talk about noise.
As I am generally more like the 90% fellow, and the digital is not generally on.

 

[Tangram]

Noise is indeed the enemy of happy listening. That’s why I’ve chosen a very simple, vinyl only system with a short signal chain, Even using a SUT, I’ve had no noise issues. Complicated systems with many sources scare me because IMHO every additional piece of gear has the potential to add noise.

 

[Zeotrope]

Ok - prove it.
It is like the ravings of an asylum without some evidence that it exists.

If it is ethernet signals, then are they on the wires, or in the ether?
There are specific rates for eithernet, we should be able to see those as rate lines with an FFT.

Without something like that, is has more of a smell (stink) of salesmanship, and FOMO in terms of something that may or may not exist.

More of these “tweak things” are spruicked in similar ways.

Ugh. The proof is in listening. Go and listen for yourself - it’s not up to him to “prove” anything to you.
I remembered why I am ignoring you,

 

[Zeotrope]

With high efficiency horns in a small room, everything is audible. I’ve been on a long term quest to eliminate audible background noise — and finally got there. It’s incredible how much better the audio and video sounds as well — i.e., not just between the notes but also the notes themselves sound so much less harsh, more “real”, and more anchored in a larger soundstage.

AC noise, ground noise, vibration, and EMI/RFI are all contributors to noise.
I finally settled on Shunyata Denali, Altaira, Seismion, and Schnerzinger as the component suppliers.

Until you hear the impacts, you don’t understand how much better your system can sound. Unfortunately, many prefer to be ignorant.

 

[oldvinyl]

The other thing I do for noise is to clean all connectors, plugs, jacks, IEC receptacles, cable pins, tube pins, tube sockets twice a year with Flitz and Kontak. The reduction in background noise afterwards always amazes me. It removes oxidation and leaves a clean surface for improved contact and conduction. Works on amps, preamps, speaker terminals, CD player, etc.

It takes a day to do, but it is really worth the effort. This shows the amount of oxidation picked up by the Q-tip and pipe cleaners.

 

[treitz3]

This is a topic I am very passionate about. Noise kills the music.

In my experience, there are layers, and layers and layers of noise coming from all kinds of different sources. Each layer removed reveals more music -- more pure tone, more spatial and time information. There are all kinds of products that help reduce noise. Some people refer to these as tweeks. To me, they are essential.

Same here, Todd. This has been one of my biggest gripes since before we were re-introduced by a mutual friend of ours in the industry. Essential is an understatement (to me) and something I am also passionate about. Very passionate about, actually.

Tom

 

[Holmz]

Ugh. The proof is in listening. Go and listen for yourself - it’s not up to him to “prove” anything to you.
I remembered why I am ignoring you,

Sorry I vexed you into hitting the ignor button.

But let’s rebook at this…
When one listens then they get the ensemble of system.

If say the preamp and amp and the analogue side have no noise, or no noise that is heard, then that says something in comparison to the digital side.

If there were to be some clues like ethernet specific rate lines, that are showing up, then we know where to attack the problem to ameliorate the issue(s).

As presented, it is like a cauldron where we put all the do-dads into the system to thwart some noise, that may or may not be present.
Everyone is free to do that if that is what they want to do.

Here is an example…

The other thing I do for noise is to clean all connectors, plugs, jacks, IEC receptacles, cable pins, tube pins, tube sockets twice a year with Flitz and Kontak. The reduction in background noise afterwards always amazes me. It removes oxidation and leaves a clean surface for improved contact and conduction. Works on amps, preamps, speaker terminals, CD player, etc.

It takes a day to do, but it is really worth the effort. This shows the amount of oxidation picked up by the Q-tip and pipe cleaners.

View attachment 148240

I have no doubt that this works, but it would be handy to know if the noise improvement is noise in the idle state, or if the noise is only present when the signal needs to push through the dirt.

That probably doesn’t matter as it is easy to clean stuff up, but in my case using a plot, I could miss it is I am looking at the system base level noise without a signal percolating through.


Knowing where the noise is coming from, and how it is coming in, may not be of interest to you or others, but I find it as interesting than the end goal of reducing noise.

 

[Daverich4]

I recently tried an experiment with my headphone system that I read about on another forum. I played a 1,000 Hz signal that was -120 dB down. With the gain on my Headamp GSX MKll amp on high and the volume all the way around I could hear the tone through my Focal Utopia 2022 headphones. It was way down in level but clear and there was no hint of anything else that I could hear. If I’m not able to hear it at my systems highest level do I have a noise problem? Is the noise being discussed here going to affect the sound in my system some other way that isn’t directly audible to me? I’m not really sure what else to listen for to tell if I have a problem.

 

[jeromelang]

magnetic field interference and eddy current

 

[oldvinyl]

As presented, it is like a cauldron where we put all the do-dads into the system to thwart some noise, that may or may not be present.
Everyone is free to do that if that is what they want to do.

Here is an example…

I have no doubt that this works, but it would be handy to know if the noise improvement is noise in the idle state, or if the noise is only present when the signal needs to push through the dirt.

That probably doesn’t matter as it is easy to clean stuff up, but in my case using a plot, I could miss it is I am looking at the system base level noise without a signal percolating through.


Knowing where the noise is coming from, and how it is coming in, may not be of interest to you or others, but I find it as interesting than the end goal of reducing noise.

Example of what?
This is not a do-dad, nor a dont-mom.
Just sharing my experience. Other are free to try it, or not.

What plot do you refer to? The plot thickens .... a plot of land .... a Bode plot.

Cleaning connectors in my system, to my ears, reduced background noise when no signal is playing. The reduced background noise is quite noticeable with my all tube 70 dB gain phono stage (no record playing). The cleaning also improves high frequency signals (the shimmer of cymbals, piano harmonics) and perception of ambient cues (the sound of the sound in the recording venue) when listening to a record.

In my system, either the phono stage is connected to the amps or the CD player is connected to the amps. This eliminates any cross-coupling. The digital side is on its own separate dedicated circuit to further reduce any coupling. All carefully planned and implemented to eliminate ground loops.

I have also chased down some more problematic sources - and resolved them. Had noise from shop or industrial equipment on the incoming AC and had noise coupling from the motor of the exhaust fan in the kitchen. Some of the solutions to these problems were in an earlier post.

If you want to know if knowing the source of the noise is of interest - just ask.

 

[dcfis]

Tom,

This is a topic I am very passionate about. Noise kills the music.

In my experience, there are layers, and layers and layers of noise coming from all kinds of different sources. Each layer removed reveals more music -- more pure tone, more spatial and time information. There are all kinds of products that help reduce noise. Some people refer to these as tweeks. To me, they are essential.

For example, one of the biggest sources of noise is ethernet. As soon as an ethernet cable is plugged into a system it floods the system with noise. A good, low noise switch, shielded ethernet cable and some type of ethernet filter go a long way in helping mitigate this.

Any filter recommendations?

 

[Gregm]

As presented, it is like a cauldron where we put all the do-dads into the system to thwart some noise, that may or may not be present.
Everyone is free to do that if that is what they want to do.

Really, it's not a bad idea to address the causes of noise generation - it is a practical issue, not voodoo

Circuits, passive components etc do generate noise. For example, even in a low noise electronic environment you will hear some hiss through horn speakers switched to high amplitude.
The problem is not only that the noise is audible during playback (it may not be perceptible from afar) but especially how this noise affects the overall reproduciton of the main signal. For example, noise lowers the perceived dynamic range and resolution in the audible range.
Switching power supplies, of which there are many, while very efficient, inject noise into the power grid which is then picked up and reproduced by other equipment... Ground loops, DC component in the mains power create audible noise (transformers buzzing, for example).

 

[sbnx]

Any filter recommendations?

Are you referring to ethernet filters? If so there is a whole thread on this topic.

It is not always the case in audio that the more you spend the better the performance, but in the case of ethernet filters this seems to be true. I have tried the majority of ethernet filters and the effect seems pretty linear with price. Here is the same list I posted in that thread. English Electric now has a plus model in the $900 range but I have not test it yet. Also worth noting that multiple filters work. Think of each one as removing a percentage of noise. So perhaps one of the filters removes 20% leaving 80%. Adding another filter that removes 50% would leave 40% and so on. I am not necessarily suggesting that you add 10 filters but rather that you can get a few and assess the effect -- positive or negative.

DX Engineering ISO Plus 2 -- $82
iFi LAN Silencer -- $89
Stack Audio Smooth LAN -- $305
English Electric EE1 -- 300 Euro
Aardvark Classic -- $500
Aardvark Ultra -- $900
CAD Ethernet Control -- $1250

 

[sbnx]

Ah… <light bulb>

Maybe this explains why I am often perplexed with the talk about noise.
As I am generally more like the 90% fellow, and the digital is not generally on.

Good morning Holmz,

There is noise on the analog side as well. It is just not nearly so bad as the digital side. Chord Company (Disclosure: I represent them) just released an analog ground device. Roy Gregory was pretty enthusiastic about it. You might want to try it and see if it improves your music.

Ground Pounder? - Gy8

The Chord Company PhonoARAY

gy8.eu