I am using a Cary Audio SLP 98 tube preamp and 200.2 ES power amp. The sound like the absolute sound review (Dry, Shouty, thin and bright) The same electronic on my quads 2905 sounds musical with no issues. I tried a Prema luna tube amp which improved the overall sound somewhat. NEED HELP
Not happy with martin logan expression 11a
- Thread starter JohnWarren
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Hi John,
Initial thought is that you have to experiment with room placement, acoustic treatments and available speaker tonal adjustment options. Having had experience with four different ML models over some 25 years or so, they can be difficult to "dial in" but once done, I hope / trust you will be happy. And my last two listening rooms were definitely on the bright / reflective side of the equation.
I read the TAS review and I believe you maybe somewhat exaggerating the negatives. The reviewer did indicate that the speaker is voiced a bit brighter than the Montis, which it replaced, but he had many positive comments about the overall speaker performance.
Good luck.
Initial thought is that you have to experiment with room placement, acoustic treatments and available speaker tonal adjustment options. Having had experience with four different ML models over some 25 years or so, they can be difficult to "dial in" but once done, I hope / trust you will be happy. And my last two listening rooms were definitely on the bright / reflective side of the equation.
I read the TAS review and I believe you maybe somewhat exaggerating the negatives. The reviewer did indicate that the speaker is voiced a bit brighter than the Montis, which it replaced, but he had many positive comments about the overall speaker performance.
Good luck.
Dry shouty thin bright is just bad set up. You cannot use the exact same electronics as on your quads, you will have to try different ones to get it singing.
The speaker position may need to be revisited as well. You cannot expect a position optimal for one speaker to work well for another.
We have a chap hear who had issues with his Ethos speakers. Something to do with a panel failure on one half of the panel... Not too sure what's going on there.
Anyway, our Aus distributor/importer for ML replaced the Ethos panels with the 11a panels instead! Claiming that they didn't have a direct replacement for parts, which was still under warranty.
The end result, the chap is massively unhappy with the sound! Claims it to be exactly what the earlier post said, bright, shout and peaky... Doesn't like it at all prefers his original Ethos! I certainly don't blame him and only hope that ML or our Aus distributors help him out.
I have contacted my previous dealer network based in Spore, Thailand and HK. All three of them stated an entirely different thing/ solution was to be able to provide a full replacement with the original Ethos panels, no questions asked! So, again a bit perplexing as to what exactly our Aus distributors have done. Whatever it is, it's definitely not sounding any good.
I also advised on run-in time, at least a minimum of 100hrs since these are brand new panels consisting of "Blade" tech which is ML's latest panel version but to fit this kind of thing into an older Ethos I'm just wondering if this is the right approach...
Any thoughts?
RJ
Anyway, our Aus distributor/importer for ML replaced the Ethos panels with the 11a panels instead! Claiming that they didn't have a direct replacement for parts, which was still under warranty.
The end result, the chap is massively unhappy with the sound! Claims it to be exactly what the earlier post said, bright, shout and peaky... Doesn't like it at all prefers his original Ethos! I certainly don't blame him and only hope that ML or our Aus distributors help him out.
I have contacted my previous dealer network based in Spore, Thailand and HK. All three of them stated an entirely different thing/ solution was to be able to provide a full replacement with the original Ethos panels, no questions asked! So, again a bit perplexing as to what exactly our Aus distributors have done. Whatever it is, it's definitely not sounding any good.
I also advised on run-in time, at least a minimum of 100hrs since these are brand new panels consisting of "Blade" tech which is ML's latest panel version but to fit this kind of thing into an older Ethos I'm just wondering if this is the right approach...
Any thoughts?
RJ
If ML can make me panels from the early 2000s, while Sanders was still there, I bet they can surely make them for the Ethos as well. ML service is phenomenal and renowned.
Exactly! Right?
However our very own Aus distributors are letting this guy down... Now he's having second thoughts of even keeping these hybrids since they've altered the panels with the 11a panels, the bass and integration with the panel is no where close to what he was getting from the original Ethos panels. I'm not sure why these guys did or even recommended such a different kind of panel to install but they did!
I'd still like to see how this plays out though, I'll keep up the updates from down unda. Cheers for now, RJ
However our very own Aus distributors are letting this guy down... Now he's having second thoughts of even keeping these hybrids since they've altered the panels with the 11a panels, the bass and integration with the panel is no where close to what he was getting from the original Ethos panels. I'm not sure why these guys did or even recommended such a different kind of panel to install but they did!
I'd still like to see how this plays out though, I'll keep up the updates from down unda. Cheers for now, RJ
Seems like at this stage our Aus distributors have done all they possibly could. The owner has also received contact from ML HQ I believe and they have assured this was the best solution in order to achieve a full working speaker.
The question is whether this "working speaker" is upto par compared with the Ethos, we would certainly hope so...
On another note, there's been discussion that after these hybrids have actually been upgraded to the new Blade Tech panels, which are quite different to the Ethos panels, perhaps the basics need to be readdressed:
Type of amplification, positioning, sound absorbent materials in the listening room, ancillary gear such as cables and interconnects, the listening room and it's environment in general...
Having gotten used to the original Ethos sound, which he was very used to, now what we have here is something quite different! I also believe that the panels need to be run-in for quite a while before ascertaining if the overall sound is poor to just average.
I've extensively auditioned all the hybrids in the new Masterpiece series and they are all stunning hybrids! Then again they were used with top line tube amps, either CJ, VTL, VAC and the new ARC 160M's. I don't think this particular owner has anything similar or in line with these top end brands but that's a matter of preference and budgets... So I'm hoping that over a period of time, the sound will improve towards a wonderful musical event!
Let's see how it goes. Cheers RJ
The question is whether this "working speaker" is upto par compared with the Ethos, we would certainly hope so...
On another note, there's been discussion that after these hybrids have actually been upgraded to the new Blade Tech panels, which are quite different to the Ethos panels, perhaps the basics need to be readdressed:
Type of amplification, positioning, sound absorbent materials in the listening room, ancillary gear such as cables and interconnects, the listening room and it's environment in general...
Having gotten used to the original Ethos sound, which he was very used to, now what we have here is something quite different! I also believe that the panels need to be run-in for quite a while before ascertaining if the overall sound is poor to just average.
I've extensively auditioned all the hybrids in the new Masterpiece series and they are all stunning hybrids! Then again they were used with top line tube amps, either CJ, VTL, VAC and the new ARC 160M's. I don't think this particular owner has anything similar or in line with these top end brands but that's a matter of preference and budgets... So I'm hoping that over a period of time, the sound will improve towards a wonderful musical event!
Let's see how it goes. Cheers RJ
@JohnWarren: Any more updates on this? I've also found a non-burned in pair of Impressions 11A thin in the mids and a bit dry in the bass with a relative lack of drive, energy, punch and I'm wondering to what degree is this character due to the lack of burn in. Thank you!
I'm replying to the original post, but I've read all subsequent replies.
Last year, after quite a bit of research (reading reviews, contacting existing owners, discussing with ML themselves) and a couple of showroom demos, I took the plunge and bought a new pair of Expression 13As to replace my 14 year old Avantgarde Uno horns.
They duly arrived together with the PBK kit. I let them run for a couple of weeks and experimented with tilt, toe-in, feet, etc and ran PBK software (with the help of the UK distributor who visited to offer experience and guidance) but like the OP, they never sounded as good as I was expecting. I used amps from Sanders (bought specially for the MLs) , Gamut, NAD and Accuphase.
My only other electrostatic experience was (like the OP) with Quad 2905s upgraded with 2912 transformers. The Quads sounded wonderful (with Gamut or NAD), though unacceptable aesthetically in my room and remarkably similar to the Avantgarde Uno speakers. However the 13As were most disappointing compared with the ancient Unos (that I was intending to sell in favour of the new MLs) or the Quads. Not just my opinion, but those of everyone, without exception, who visited including a Quad owner.
However, despite the positive signals from those who should know, I think I may have been badly advised of their suitability. My room had been fine with the Unos, the Quads and a pair of large Quadrall speakers, but the MLs just don't sound happy. They have less excitement factor, are somewhat thin (the OPs description fits my experience) and generally rather lifeless, with or without PBK adjustment.
They did offer one big advantage over the Unos - they sound much better from my dining and kitchen areas that are behind the speakers (see attachment), but from the listening position in front - very disappointing.
So the MLs are for sale and the Unos were sold (for exactly what I paid for them new in 2003) when I spotted a good pair of Avantgarde Duos.
Moral of the story - ALWAYS arrange a home demo, particularly with ML speakers, or anticipate the possibility of a very costly disappointment.
So, anyone from the UK interested in effectively new ML 13As knows who to contact. Demo in a somewhat unsuitable room, but no doubt very much better in theirs - they are after all fabulous speakers in the right room. Peter
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I'm well used to finicky speakers - Avantgardes are notoriously difficult to set up properly, but I suspect MLs will simply not perform well unless they have a wall behind them. You'll see from my room diagram that one speaker has an angled window 12 ft behind it and the other is 15ft from a back wall. Do you know of a good-sounding ML system that's set up with speakers in the middle of a large room?
The 13As are part of ML's top Masterpiece range - I'd be interested to know which current ML speakers you'd consider more favourably. Thanks Peter
My last ML was the CLS was almost dead center of a large room.
Now that you have been led astray I am warry of making a choice for you. Smile
Two amps come to mind. The classic Mac 275 I think. And of course my favorite the moscode 402au.
My favorite ml hybrid is the15a which was showing im a large room.
ML does benefit from vigorous breakin. 6 weeks of loud play.
Now that you have been led astray I am warry of making a choice for you. Smile
Two amps come to mind. The classic Mac 275 I think. And of course my favorite the moscode 402au.
My favorite ml hybrid is the15a which was showing im a large room.
ML does benefit from vigorous breakin. 6 weeks of loud play.
Apart from this reply from HH, this is not the first time I've heard of these issues: too bright, too thin in the mids, not well balanced and so on...
I've also noticed from the room diagram attached, it's not really that bad, I've come across much worse, pillars in the middle, one channel off skew positioned at an angle..., this room seems just quite different to the norm... no 4 square walls as such, this one however seems to have plenty of space vertically as well as horizontal dispersion.
We've managed to help a few audiophile mates who did have a few room issues after purchasing the Impression 11A and the Expression 13a. After a few adjustments and critical placement options, now they actually sound fabulous!
1. The first thing is, people tend to forget that these are panels after all, no box enclosures at all, other than the bass drivers housed at the bottom. Hence, the room becomes the box! If this room/box is not taken into account in terms of its strengths and weaknesses, then no one will be able to determine what would make the speakers sound their best in that given room.
2. We don't all have that choice / luxury, where perfect rooms are at our disposal... its just not reality. So, we have to comply and just make do with what we've got!
Having said that, only the person actually living in that room would ever know the limits on the room.
3. A dynamic driver type speaker is basically a box, when placed in a room, it virtually becomes a box in another box. Phase anomalies need to be addressed. Critical side placement needs to be considered to avoid unwanted freq, intermittent distortion issues, precise imaging, transparency and detail can be all compromised and so... Then there are those specialised designers to name a few, like Wilson, YG Acoustics, Genesis Adanvanced Technologies, Sonus Fabers etc. Who would incorporate built-in DSP, parametric equalization, room correction software systems and outstanding cabinet work, with some superb construction materials money can buy... obviously these items come at a high cost.
4. All of these elements do help, however I've also noticed addressing the basic room elements is the key in achieving optimal performance . So whenever we come across a fairly large room, and see full range stats, by analyzing the room characteristics I can quite easily determine the sound. But with dynamic driver types it's not that easy to pre-determine anything. Trial and error is the key!
5. Now addressing that very same phrase "Trial & error", this where Hear here would need to try various placement options. Either by readjustment of every item in the room. Furnishings, carpets, drapes and wall hangings, the floor tiles, floor surface area, is it generally too bright? What's causing the thinness? Even the owner's manual states this, experiment with various placement options to derive the best performance.
The last room we came across did have a similar arch/ curved back wall but with careful placement of the 13a much closer to the curved wall, leaving around 3.5 to 4ft of space proved to be most successful. The centre position was filled with components other gear and the main audio racks. Carpeting was used over timber flooring just to dampen lightly not overdoing things...
At the end a fairly good amount of space, spanning centre to left to right, shaped the room for the 13a's. Listening position was not focused in one spot, hence the main couch placed about 10ft away was somewhat curved as well. Allowing one half of that room, in the form of a semi-circle, only to be joined by the other half of the circle but separated by the system and seating in the middle. Once there was a better form/shape of a room taking place, things began to improve greatly!
Three areas that improved significantly:
1. Imaging
2. Tonality
3. Overall balance
The third point was addressed by fine tuning the bass level controls, at the end of the day the ARC software system was not even used and we were able to draw out far greater levels of performance from thth13a's. With a curved room, sometimes it is hard to place audio gear in the middle, as it tends to stick out from the norm, upsetting the aesthetics. This can be adjusted by placing the gear onto one side but then longer runs of cables & interconnects would have to be used.
6. The last aspect that worked remarkably well with both the 11a & 13a in terms of sorting out the brightness and thinness issues, was the use of a audiophile reference quality amplifier. Tube amps were used in both cases to outstanding results but that doesn't mean SS amplification is inadequate for thinness & brightness issues.
7. The main and final point we all learnt that day/week, was the sheer fact that these new ML X-stat panels are highly revealing! Therefore, whatever minor or major component is used in such a system will be highlighted through the speakers in their purest form.
So that particular thinness, shouty and brightness is basically coming from the gear driving it as well as the room on top!
The amount of time, and trials spent on both these projects was considerable effort! At the end of the day, these latest "blade" tech stat panel are in fact truly awesome. It just takes one bad event or element within a particular system to make these sound not so great... and that's the main reason for people who've stumbled in that region to cast negative comments.
As for the lucky ones, who've taken the time and effort to address every aspect of the system, not just placement but room, gear etc., are finding these new hybrids a formidable force in stat design. They are very satisfying systems, and will bring out the best in recordings. Speaking of recordings, now that's a whole other issue...
I would strongly suggest that HH conduct some of these points raised, after all these were our findings and I just wanted to share these points simply because I believe they are very critical in achieving superb sound presentation from ML's latest hybrids.
Cheers and all the best, hope things will improve...
RJ
I've also noticed from the room diagram attached, it's not really that bad, I've come across much worse, pillars in the middle, one channel off skew positioned at an angle..., this room seems just quite different to the norm... no 4 square walls as such, this one however seems to have plenty of space vertically as well as horizontal dispersion.
We've managed to help a few audiophile mates who did have a few room issues after purchasing the Impression 11A and the Expression 13a. After a few adjustments and critical placement options, now they actually sound fabulous!
1. The first thing is, people tend to forget that these are panels after all, no box enclosures at all, other than the bass drivers housed at the bottom. Hence, the room becomes the box! If this room/box is not taken into account in terms of its strengths and weaknesses, then no one will be able to determine what would make the speakers sound their best in that given room.
2. We don't all have that choice / luxury, where perfect rooms are at our disposal... its just not reality. So, we have to comply and just make do with what we've got!
Having said that, only the person actually living in that room would ever know the limits on the room.
3. A dynamic driver type speaker is basically a box, when placed in a room, it virtually becomes a box in another box. Phase anomalies need to be addressed. Critical side placement needs to be considered to avoid unwanted freq, intermittent distortion issues, precise imaging, transparency and detail can be all compromised and so... Then there are those specialised designers to name a few, like Wilson, YG Acoustics, Genesis Adanvanced Technologies, Sonus Fabers etc. Who would incorporate built-in DSP, parametric equalization, room correction software systems and outstanding cabinet work, with some superb construction materials money can buy... obviously these items come at a high cost.
4. All of these elements do help, however I've also noticed addressing the basic room elements is the key in achieving optimal performance . So whenever we come across a fairly large room, and see full range stats, by analyzing the room characteristics I can quite easily determine the sound. But with dynamic driver types it's not that easy to pre-determine anything. Trial and error is the key!
5. Now addressing that very same phrase "Trial & error", this where Hear here would need to try various placement options. Either by readjustment of every item in the room. Furnishings, carpets, drapes and wall hangings, the floor tiles, floor surface area, is it generally too bright? What's causing the thinness? Even the owner's manual states this, experiment with various placement options to derive the best performance.
The last room we came across did have a similar arch/ curved back wall but with careful placement of the 13a much closer to the curved wall, leaving around 3.5 to 4ft of space proved to be most successful. The centre position was filled with components other gear and the main audio racks. Carpeting was used over timber flooring just to dampen lightly not overdoing things...
At the end a fairly good amount of space, spanning centre to left to right, shaped the room for the 13a's. Listening position was not focused in one spot, hence the main couch placed about 10ft away was somewhat curved as well. Allowing one half of that room, in the form of a semi-circle, only to be joined by the other half of the circle but separated by the system and seating in the middle. Once there was a better form/shape of a room taking place, things began to improve greatly!
Three areas that improved significantly:
1. Imaging
2. Tonality
3. Overall balance
The third point was addressed by fine tuning the bass level controls, at the end of the day the ARC software system was not even used and we were able to draw out far greater levels of performance from thth13a's. With a curved room, sometimes it is hard to place audio gear in the middle, as it tends to stick out from the norm, upsetting the aesthetics. This can be adjusted by placing the gear onto one side but then longer runs of cables & interconnects would have to be used.
6. The last aspect that worked remarkably well with both the 11a & 13a in terms of sorting out the brightness and thinness issues, was the use of a audiophile reference quality amplifier. Tube amps were used in both cases to outstanding results but that doesn't mean SS amplification is inadequate for thinness & brightness issues.
7. The main and final point we all learnt that day/week, was the sheer fact that these new ML X-stat panels are highly revealing! Therefore, whatever minor or major component is used in such a system will be highlighted through the speakers in their purest form.
So that particular thinness, shouty and brightness is basically coming from the gear driving it as well as the room on top!
The amount of time, and trials spent on both these projects was considerable effort! At the end of the day, these latest "blade" tech stat panel are in fact truly awesome. It just takes one bad event or element within a particular system to make these sound not so great... and that's the main reason for people who've stumbled in that region to cast negative comments.
As for the lucky ones, who've taken the time and effort to address every aspect of the system, not just placement but room, gear etc., are finding these new hybrids a formidable force in stat design. They are very satisfying systems, and will bring out the best in recordings. Speaking of recordings, now that's a whole other issue...
I would strongly suggest that HH conduct some of these points raised, after all these were our findings and I just wanted to share these points simply because I believe they are very critical in achieving superb sound presentation from ML's latest hybrids.
Cheers and all the best, hope things will improve...
RJ
I agree.
And break in of the conventional dynamic drivers takes time, more than one would suspect.
The result is bass harmonics just are not there leading to an extra thin and bright sound because of no bottom end to balance it out.
At least that is my theory.
Good to hear from a former ML owner - I hope to become one soon!
Interesting what you say about the 15A. In fact it's virtually IDENTICAL in spec to the 13A and 11A, apart from sheer size. All the technology (including crossover frequency) is identical and they all use the same PBK for bass integration. The 15A uniquely stands vertical as standard, though the others can be adjusted to do so too. I certainly would have gone for the 15A had there been anything on the UK used market, but advice from various sources lead me to choose the 13A. I'm sure I would have experienced the same problems with the 15A as the 13A - and the OP's with his 11A. I really hope he manages to get his singing nicely soon with the help of all the great postings in this thread.
I'd never heard of the Moscode amp you mentioned - sounds very interesting, but I bought a Sanders Magtech specifically for the MLs as this amp was so highly regarded by so many on the ML Owners forum - and it was designed specifically for esl speakers by/for an esl speaker expert. Apart from the Sanders, I used a MOSFET GamuT D200 and various other amps including beefy valve SET monos with a meagre 28 watts. Sadly, even after a long break-in, a visit from the UK importer to help set up and run the room correction and a lot of experimentation, there was no doubt they fell well short of the sound quality of even my old Avantgarde Unos, let along the Duos that I've bought since. I don't blame the MLs - I've heard wonderful sounds from them. One suggestion was to place large acoustic panels a few feet behind the MLs, but I don't want barn doors in my living room, which is the same reason I bought (as an esl experiment) and then sold Quad 2905s before embarking on the aesthetically far more acceptable MLs.
Thanks Big Dog for your extended list of observations and suggestions from Down Under - greatly appreciated. You obviously have plenty of ML experience - perhaps you are a dealer?
I hope from the above that you've realised I've now given up on the 13As which is a huge (and costly) disappointment for me. I hear all you say about room acoustics and changing things round to achieve better sound, but when I bought this apartment, my priority was to furnish and arrange it so I could enjoy its magnificent views across Portsmouth Harbour and the Solent to the Isle of Wight and to please myself and to entertain my guests. It is not a "music room" that needs no windows or other distractions other than a listening chair and plenty of acoustic panels, carpets, etc to maximise sound quality to the exclusion of all else. Sadly I don't have sufficient spare accommodation for such a room - and I don't think I'd like to use it anyway!
To sum up, I've decided that I like my horn speakers even more than I did before this ML experience and I've since changed my Avantgarde Unos for Duos with the expectation of a further change in the future to the latest Duo or Mezzo models.
Thanks again. Peter
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