Not happy with martin logan expression 11a
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This thread may prove a useful resource to others, so I'll add my 2 cents...
I have upgraded from Martin Logan Classic 9 to Impression 11A. The rest of the system consists of an Audio Analogue Maestro Anniversary integrated amplifier, cheap Cambridge D300 CD player (to be upgraded later on), inexpensive Kacsa (sometimes Linn) interconnects and Proac speaker cables and just the original power cables (and cheap, non-audiophile power strips). Room is rather small, speakers close to the back (longer) wall and plenty of improvised absorption treatment on the back wall and even a blanket on the wall behind the listener. ARC room correction not used yet, but due very very soon. There is still much to be done about this system before it gives its best, but the ownership time with these two ML models allowed me to learn quite a few unexpected (sometimes unbelievable) things:
1. Perhaps also due to the plentiful absorption on the back wall, these speakers are EXTREMELY sensitive to positioning!! 5 millimeters can literally make or break the system in my case (I'm also very sensitive to the correct tonality of the acoustic instruments and the overall tonal balance, so maybe others would better tolerate a bad positioning of the speakers, but somehow I don't think so). The toe in angle is crucial and even very small changes of the rake angle strongly impacts the sound. I know I will loose some credibility by stating this, but I had a friend come and listen and he was just as astonished as I was: raising the back legs of my former Classic 9 by less than a millimeter (the thickness of 7 sheet of paper to be more precise) changed the sound very significantly!
2. Without the back wall reinforcement, both models lacked bass and sounded thin, especially the Impression 11A (currently they have the midbass switch set on +2dB and the deep bass also around +2dB).
3. Too much absorption dulls the sound and softens the transients, but too little or no absorption results in a thin, grey or bleached, resonant (a little bit "bathroom like") sound lacking warmth, detail, transparency and, surprisingly enough, treble sparkle (!). There is a thin line between the two.
4. The power cords can dramatically impact the sound. I have only tried a borrowed Clearer Audio (again, quite cheap) chord on the amp and the sound became much warmer, fuller (but not quite full enough in the lower midrange, read below), highs got really beautiful - but the bass, while meatier, also became too soft. Amazingly, changing the speakers' power cables impacts the frequencies higher than 300 Hz too, although that is the range of the passive electrostatic panel. I have no explanation other than a psychoacoustic phenomenon, but it really didn't seem to be only that. Oh, and the power strips can play a role too!
5. There is, in my opinion, a certain thinness in the Impression 11A's lower midrange, probably around the bottom octave of the panels' range. At least when used with the original, cheap, generic looking power cords. Depending on the other sonic traits, in can be objectionable in some setup configurations and benign in others. I don't know yet if it can be fully mitigated without EQ but I think it can.
Bottom line: setting up these speakers can be a job in itself. And I believe a favorable room (I'm talking about room treatment) is really mandatory.
When all the stars finally align, the result is delightful.
I have upgraded from Martin Logan Classic 9 to Impression 11A. The rest of the system consists of an Audio Analogue Maestro Anniversary integrated amplifier, cheap Cambridge D300 CD player (to be upgraded later on), inexpensive Kacsa (sometimes Linn) interconnects and Proac speaker cables and just the original power cables (and cheap, non-audiophile power strips). Room is rather small, speakers close to the back (longer) wall and plenty of improvised absorption treatment on the back wall and even a blanket on the wall behind the listener. ARC room correction not used yet, but due very very soon. There is still much to be done about this system before it gives its best, but the ownership time with these two ML models allowed me to learn quite a few unexpected (sometimes unbelievable) things:
1. Perhaps also due to the plentiful absorption on the back wall, these speakers are EXTREMELY sensitive to positioning!! 5 millimeters can literally make or break the system in my case (I'm also very sensitive to the correct tonality of the acoustic instruments and the overall tonal balance, so maybe others would better tolerate a bad positioning of the speakers, but somehow I don't think so). The toe in angle is crucial and even very small changes of the rake angle strongly impacts the sound. I know I will loose some credibility by stating this, but I had a friend come and listen and he was just as astonished as I was: raising the back legs of my former Classic 9 by less than a millimeter (the thickness of 7 sheet of paper to be more precise) changed the sound very significantly!
2. Without the back wall reinforcement, both models lacked bass and sounded thin, especially the Impression 11A (currently they have the midbass switch set on +2dB and the deep bass also around +2dB).
3. Too much absorption dulls the sound and softens the transients, but too little or no absorption results in a thin, grey or bleached, resonant (a little bit "bathroom like") sound lacking warmth, detail, transparency and, surprisingly enough, treble sparkle (!). There is a thin line between the two.
4. The power cords can dramatically impact the sound. I have only tried a borrowed Clearer Audio (again, quite cheap) chord on the amp and the sound became much warmer, fuller (but not quite full enough in the lower midrange, read below), highs got really beautiful - but the bass, while meatier, also became too soft. Amazingly, changing the speakers' power cables impacts the frequencies higher than 300 Hz too, although that is the range of the passive electrostatic panel. I have no explanation other than a psychoacoustic phenomenon, but it really didn't seem to be only that. Oh, and the power strips can play a role too!
5. There is, in my opinion, a certain thinness in the Impression 11A's lower midrange, probably around the bottom octave of the panels' range. At least when used with the original, cheap, generic looking power cords. Depending on the other sonic traits, in can be objectionable in some setup configurations and benign in others. I don't know yet if it can be fully mitigated without EQ but I think it can.
Bottom line: setting up these speakers can be a job in itself. And I believe a favorable room (I'm talking about room treatment) is really mandatory.
When all the stars finally align, the result is delightful.
All very valid points.
That room is definitely not Stat friendly nor is it panel friendly whatsoever. I was thinking about the arch/curve based in the diagram but after seeing the actual photo, forget it. No chance any high quality panels are ever going to be outstanding in this particular room, not only is the room so important but also as one other member has already stated, ML's like most full range panels or hybrids are definitely extremely room sensitive.
We were living in a small unit/apt for nearly 15 years. The final system I embarked on since 2004 in the making... Now have a full line up of Conrad Johnson amplifiers and the ML CLX ART. This system sounded ok in the apt but it was like driving a Lamborghini in a 60km zone...
After a long decade and a half, we finally finished up the new place and moved lock-stock&barrel, only now the CLX's really take off, reaching the upper limits of the stratosphere! It's such a high level of realism and refinement, it's as if a whole new system is in place. Nearly everything was also upgraded, including internal parts and layout before moving but that made a small margin of improvement. The major upgraded were done in the new house with the AC mains wiring, dedicated circuits wired directly to the main board, another big difference in absolute quietness...
Anyway, I cannot stress enough the importance of the room, and as I stated before the room becomes the box with panels. Hence, bad room, bad box, bad sound.
AG horns, plenty of experience and great speakers in any room setting. Plonk them anywhere and they'll work. Not as fussy as panels. In fact they require much larger space to propel its energy out, which they do with great force and dynamics... if the area is enclosed horns can be annoying to the point where you can get a headache within the first three mins!
My last and final list of speakers included the AG Duo XD's. They were phenomenal with the CJ amplifiers and I nearly committed on a deposit. However, my true passion has always been with tubes, TT and stats, so ended with the CLX's, and called it a day. They're in a class of their own.
Re. To Hear here- whether I'm a dealer?
Was Back in the hey day during the early 90s to around 2004, but that was only a side gig not my main job... learned an awful lot, many fingers burnt, and many lessons learned. There's always something to learn from others systems and their journey, it's definitely great to have this forum.
Cheers maties,
Best RJ
That room is definitely not Stat friendly nor is it panel friendly whatsoever. I was thinking about the arch/curve based in the diagram but after seeing the actual photo, forget it. No chance any high quality panels are ever going to be outstanding in this particular room, not only is the room so important but also as one other member has already stated, ML's like most full range panels or hybrids are definitely extremely room sensitive.
We were living in a small unit/apt for nearly 15 years. The final system I embarked on since 2004 in the making... Now have a full line up of Conrad Johnson amplifiers and the ML CLX ART. This system sounded ok in the apt but it was like driving a Lamborghini in a 60km zone...
After a long decade and a half, we finally finished up the new place and moved lock-stock&barrel, only now the CLX's really take off, reaching the upper limits of the stratosphere! It's such a high level of realism and refinement, it's as if a whole new system is in place. Nearly everything was also upgraded, including internal parts and layout before moving but that made a small margin of improvement. The major upgraded were done in the new house with the AC mains wiring, dedicated circuits wired directly to the main board, another big difference in absolute quietness...
Anyway, I cannot stress enough the importance of the room, and as I stated before the room becomes the box with panels. Hence, bad room, bad box, bad sound.
AG horns, plenty of experience and great speakers in any room setting. Plonk them anywhere and they'll work. Not as fussy as panels. In fact they require much larger space to propel its energy out, which they do with great force and dynamics... if the area is enclosed horns can be annoying to the point where you can get a headache within the first three mins!
My last and final list of speakers included the AG Duo XD's. They were phenomenal with the CJ amplifiers and I nearly committed on a deposit. However, my true passion has always been with tubes, TT and stats, so ended with the CLX's, and called it a day. They're in a class of their own.
Re. To Hear here- whether I'm a dealer?
Was Back in the hey day during the early 90s to around 2004, but that was only a side gig not my main job... learned an awful lot, many fingers burnt, and many lessons learned. There's always something to learn from others systems and their journey, it's definitely great to have this forum.
Cheers maties,
Best RJ
Once again, we are getting very constructive advice and suggestions for why these high spec ML speakers can sound exceptionally good - and equally why they may never sound as good as one might expect.
Special thanks to Don Quichotte, Kach22i and Big Dog RJ who seem to have carefully considered my own situation and concluded (as I have) that these esl MLs (13A in my case) are so room sensitive as to be a poor choice in my own peculiar room.
RJ has plenty of first-hand experience both with MLs and AGs and I very much appreciate his observations. I’m wondering though why he moved away from his Duo XDs, presumably in favour of CLXs – or were the AGs only on a Wish List? I guess he was looking for the brilliance of large electrostatics and found the CLX suited his (present) room very well. That was exactly my thinking when I bought 13As to replace my aging AG Unos.
I do raise an eyebrow at his comment “AG horns, plenty of experience and great speakers in any room setting. Plonk them anywhere and they'll work. Not as fussy as panels. In fact they require much larger space to propel its energy out, which they do with great force and dynamics...” I think AG horns require almost as careful placement as els speakers, in terms to toe-in, tilt, etc to get the incredible life-like sound and the exceptional imaging they are famed for, though less so with position in relation to adjacent walls.
I bought my Unos when living in London with a great listening room – 5 sided, 350 sq ft, 10 ft ceilings, fully carpeted, etc and they sounded wonderful after earlier speakers - ATC 50 Actives, KEF Reference 107s. When I moved them to my present home, the room was uncarpeted and no curtains for a while and they didn’t sound good. By adding more soft furnishings, part-carpeting, etc they sounded much better, but I thought a move to els may be a good upgrade.
JohnWarren who started this most constructive thread seems to have gone AWOL, which is a great shame as I feel sure he would have found ways to get his 11As singing in his room with the help of the suggestions made here. Like me he had found QUAD 2905s worked well but not his MLs [why might that be I wonder – any thought from the els experts?] Unless he has a really tricky room like my own, I think he should succeed with perseverance to achieve a great sounding system. I hope he’s been reading this thread and will perhaps contribute his thoughts and any update on his situation. Peter
Special thanks to Don Quichotte, Kach22i and Big Dog RJ who seem to have carefully considered my own situation and concluded (as I have) that these esl MLs (13A in my case) are so room sensitive as to be a poor choice in my own peculiar room.
RJ has plenty of first-hand experience both with MLs and AGs and I very much appreciate his observations. I’m wondering though why he moved away from his Duo XDs, presumably in favour of CLXs – or were the AGs only on a Wish List? I guess he was looking for the brilliance of large electrostatics and found the CLX suited his (present) room very well. That was exactly my thinking when I bought 13As to replace my aging AG Unos.
I do raise an eyebrow at his comment “AG horns, plenty of experience and great speakers in any room setting. Plonk them anywhere and they'll work. Not as fussy as panels. In fact they require much larger space to propel its energy out, which they do with great force and dynamics...” I think AG horns require almost as careful placement as els speakers, in terms to toe-in, tilt, etc to get the incredible life-like sound and the exceptional imaging they are famed for, though less so with position in relation to adjacent walls.
I bought my Unos when living in London with a great listening room – 5 sided, 350 sq ft, 10 ft ceilings, fully carpeted, etc and they sounded wonderful after earlier speakers - ATC 50 Actives, KEF Reference 107s. When I moved them to my present home, the room was uncarpeted and no curtains for a while and they didn’t sound good. By adding more soft furnishings, part-carpeting, etc they sounded much better, but I thought a move to els may be a good upgrade.
JohnWarren who started this most constructive thread seems to have gone AWOL, which is a great shame as I feel sure he would have found ways to get his 11As singing in his room with the help of the suggestions made here. Like me he had found QUAD 2905s worked well but not his MLs [why might that be I wonder – any thought from the els experts?] Unless he has a really tricky room like my own, I think he should succeed with perseverance to achieve a great sounding system. I hope he’s been reading this thread and will perhaps contribute his thoughts and any update on his situation. Peter
G'day Peter,
Not only plenty of years experience with ML, AG horns... also I may add, Apogee's, Maggies, Quads, Genesis, Martin Logan Statements Evolution II, Infinity IRSV, Wilson Alexia's, YG Acoustics and the fabulous Magico Q5. These were my top favs, owned most of them but sold more of them. Only a handful of finely selected gear ended up being our personal reference systems. One such system that I hail as the all time favorite and greatest when it was working properly!!! - the Apogee Diva's driven by top of the line CJ premier 8a Monoblocks partnered with the ART preamp, legendary sound!
With maggies- (Have owned & sold nearly every model, except 30.7's). Was one of the first to actually hear, and help a former mate setup his 30.7's in Melbourne. That story is in full glory under the Maggie thread- the marvelous MG 30.7s... but from what I learned lately, he's not too pleased with the 30.7's and is selling them off... Planning on getting one of the Genesis systems, not sure on which one though.
Most iconic, my last pair of stats were in fact the Quad ESL-2905's. Absolute disaster! Again this story is somewhere in the forum under stats on a Quad 2905 thread. Photos of it were on an old forum called Audio Review.com but not sure whatever happened to that site. Although it was a sheer disaster with all the pain & suffering, they're still my favorite all time stats (in spite of their many many flaws... especially made in China) Peter Walker is a bloody legend!
With my current system being developed over the years, now with what I've achieved and come this far, there's no other speaker that I would like to own other than the CLX's. It does so many things right, satisfies over & beyond but it wasn't easy gerting them to sound right nor was the setup process a breeze. Again room, audio gear, amplification and down to the power cords all contribute to significant improvements, which are very quantifiable, without a doubt!
Now, one thing I do want to add based on the AG horns is that actually I'm not a horn fan, never really was. The majority of horn system I've heard around the world have been quite forceful, jumpy and have given me a headache within the first three mins. They do not allow me to relax, and obviously everyone has their personal preferences...
It was introduced to me in 1999, when one of our well known fellow countrymen shipped across a huge container from Frankfurt housing these massive horns. One system was the AG Uno, then ordered the Duo's, and the third order was the AG Trio Omega Classico. When he had the Uno and Duo system, he was using these massive 400w monoblocks by Melos (No longer in production). These were the same monoblocks he used to drive his older Maggies MG3.5/r, which I later bought from him. That's about when our dealership took flight...
The Melos amps were way overkill for the AG's and headaches were coming and going in all directions... The room was also way too small, although he had a large lounge but the Mrs. Wouldn't allow the AG''s to be placed there. However, one weekend when she was away, we moved in the Infinity's (IRS 1B) and the Duo's into this larger hall/ lounge, since we didn't have much time, we just plonked it in approx settings, hooked up some long wiring which ran across to the other room since we didn't want to transfer all the gear, that would have taken us over a week... so just the speakers to try out and oh my golly! What a heck of a difference!
We just sat there transfixed, sipped beer after beer, toilet break after toilet break...and that's all she wrote! Hence, my comment on just plonk the AG's anywhere and they'll sound great...
Definitely not the case, just like any other high-end gear they do require careful placement. Later on we purchased both those systems and resold to other customers but he retained the Trio Omega's. However, after careful consideration and many debates of yelling across during very loud passages, he finally listened to my 2cts and bought a limited edition pair of Cary SET monoblocks CADse something, can't remember the exact model but were rated at just 18w and sounded superb on the Trios.
That's when I nearly bought the Duo XDs this time in 2018 but held back mainly because of two things:
1. Our little shoe box apt will not do justice to a pair of Duo's, he'll no!
2. If I was ever to re-sell the AGs their second hand value in Aus is not much, hence I wouldn't be able to upgrade on less expenditure, unless I spent an awful lot more...
The AG Duo XD system goes for around 35 grand in Aus, which is nearly similar to the CLX's back in 2018. Now I'm not sure about the Duo's current pricing but the CLX's are around 42 grand $AUD, which is the same as the Ren15a.
After having spent 35 grand on horns, then having to re-sell...getting anything close to half that is good luck!
So having thought of all options and angles, plus stats with tubes has always been an inner passion, I knew that the final decision on the CLX's would definitely be a final one. And that's all she wrote. Put it simply, I knew what I wanted, and went after it, and I also knew it's potential, the long wait into our new place was definitely worthwhile.
So as the Wiseman says, "there are no short cuts to any place worth going."
Cheers matey, I do know your AG's will sound fantastic in that particular room, and especially when you plan on upgrading to the Mezzo's, great system indeed!
RJ
Not only plenty of years experience with ML, AG horns... also I may add, Apogee's, Maggies, Quads, Genesis, Martin Logan Statements Evolution II, Infinity IRSV, Wilson Alexia's, YG Acoustics and the fabulous Magico Q5. These were my top favs, owned most of them but sold more of them. Only a handful of finely selected gear ended up being our personal reference systems. One such system that I hail as the all time favorite and greatest when it was working properly!!! - the Apogee Diva's driven by top of the line CJ premier 8a Monoblocks partnered with the ART preamp, legendary sound!
With maggies- (Have owned & sold nearly every model, except 30.7's). Was one of the first to actually hear, and help a former mate setup his 30.7's in Melbourne. That story is in full glory under the Maggie thread- the marvelous MG 30.7s... but from what I learned lately, he's not too pleased with the 30.7's and is selling them off... Planning on getting one of the Genesis systems, not sure on which one though.
Most iconic, my last pair of stats were in fact the Quad ESL-2905's. Absolute disaster! Again this story is somewhere in the forum under stats on a Quad 2905 thread. Photos of it were on an old forum called Audio Review.com but not sure whatever happened to that site. Although it was a sheer disaster with all the pain & suffering, they're still my favorite all time stats (in spite of their many many flaws... especially made in China) Peter Walker is a bloody legend!
With my current system being developed over the years, now with what I've achieved and come this far, there's no other speaker that I would like to own other than the CLX's. It does so many things right, satisfies over & beyond but it wasn't easy gerting them to sound right nor was the setup process a breeze. Again room, audio gear, amplification and down to the power cords all contribute to significant improvements, which are very quantifiable, without a doubt!
Now, one thing I do want to add based on the AG horns is that actually I'm not a horn fan, never really was. The majority of horn system I've heard around the world have been quite forceful, jumpy and have given me a headache within the first three mins. They do not allow me to relax, and obviously everyone has their personal preferences...
It was introduced to me in 1999, when one of our well known fellow countrymen shipped across a huge container from Frankfurt housing these massive horns. One system was the AG Uno, then ordered the Duo's, and the third order was the AG Trio Omega Classico. When he had the Uno and Duo system, he was using these massive 400w monoblocks by Melos (No longer in production). These were the same monoblocks he used to drive his older Maggies MG3.5/r, which I later bought from him. That's about when our dealership took flight...
The Melos amps were way overkill for the AG's and headaches were coming and going in all directions... The room was also way too small, although he had a large lounge but the Mrs. Wouldn't allow the AG''s to be placed there. However, one weekend when she was away, we moved in the Infinity's (IRS 1B) and the Duo's into this larger hall/ lounge, since we didn't have much time, we just plonked it in approx settings, hooked up some long wiring which ran across to the other room since we didn't want to transfer all the gear, that would have taken us over a week... so just the speakers to try out and oh my golly! What a heck of a difference!
We just sat there transfixed, sipped beer after beer, toilet break after toilet break...and that's all she wrote! Hence, my comment on just plonk the AG's anywhere and they'll sound great...
Definitely not the case, just like any other high-end gear they do require careful placement. Later on we purchased both those systems and resold to other customers but he retained the Trio Omega's. However, after careful consideration and many debates of yelling across during very loud passages, he finally listened to my 2cts and bought a limited edition pair of Cary SET monoblocks CADse something, can't remember the exact model but were rated at just 18w and sounded superb on the Trios.
That's when I nearly bought the Duo XDs this time in 2018 but held back mainly because of two things:
1. Our little shoe box apt will not do justice to a pair of Duo's, he'll no!
2. If I was ever to re-sell the AGs their second hand value in Aus is not much, hence I wouldn't be able to upgrade on less expenditure, unless I spent an awful lot more...
The AG Duo XD system goes for around 35 grand in Aus, which is nearly similar to the CLX's back in 2018. Now I'm not sure about the Duo's current pricing but the CLX's are around 42 grand $AUD, which is the same as the Ren15a.
After having spent 35 grand on horns, then having to re-sell...getting anything close to half that is good luck!
So having thought of all options and angles, plus stats with tubes has always been an inner passion, I knew that the final decision on the CLX's would definitely be a final one. And that's all she wrote. Put it simply, I knew what I wanted, and went after it, and I also knew it's potential, the long wait into our new place was definitely worthwhile.
So as the Wiseman says, "there are no short cuts to any place worth going."
Cheers matey, I do know your AG's will sound fantastic in that particular room, and especially when you plan on upgrading to the Mezzo's, great system indeed!
RJ
Hello RJ
Thanks for the insight into your hi-fi adventures.
I’ve never listened to any Apogee speakers but I’ve heard great compliments to them – sad they’re gone. You mention Magico. Well in my search for a new speaker system I visited a number of showrooms, primarily to hear MLs (used Summits were on my Wish List), but one dealer had a pair of Magicos in another demo room. Not sure which model but floor stander with a £15K+ price tag. Good but not as exciting to listen to as the Summits. Later I visited a showroom in the Netherlands where spectacular sounds were coming from a similarly sized, aluminium cased pair of speakers. The biggest difference was that these speakers used a coaxial mid and top ribbon system. I’d never heard of Piega before – these were Coax 711s. I was FAR more impressed with these than the even more costly Magicos.
The Quad 2905s I had for several months were bought used because a friend who lives nearby has Quads and I was hugely impressed by their surprisingly full bass and potential volume – things notoriously lacking in earlier Quads. Mine were bought from a dealer who’d taken them back from the original customer who had recently had them serviced in Huntingdon and had the transformer changed to 2912 version. I must say I was very impressed despite the apparent potential problems of placement that were the death knell of the MLs. They were placed in the same position as the MLs but coped much better – in fact sounding so similar to the horns I had to keep checking to see which I was listening to. They are great speakers and a true bargain at £8K per pair. UK prices of the other kit you mention are:
ML CLX Art - £32K
ML 15A - £25K
ML 13A - £17K
AG Duo XD - £32K
AG Mezzo XD - £47K
AG Trio - £47K + £22-108K for subs!
Quad 2912 - £8K
My Unos were bought new in 2003 for £4200 with a generous dealer discount. I sold them last year for £4200 – not a penny lost! They held their value rather well, although perhaps not so the bigger models.
Your 1999 Unos (and perhaps your first Duos) had the SUB217 subs with twin 7” drivers. Mine has SUB225 subs (as reviewed and chosen as Speaker of the Year by Stereophile), fitted with twin 10” drivers – a big improvement. My slightly younger Duos are similar but have a more recent amp design. The Mezzos (even the pre-XD version) will be a huge step up, or even the Duo XDs - all their twin 12” drivers. I’m keeping my eyes peeled for a pair of any of these – hopefully at a knockdown price.
I never liked the early AG’s “scaffolding” that supports the horn tubes, so I’ve replaced the 3 vertical supports with a single rear mounted bracket – a modification praised by AG’s MD and their former US distributor. They look so much more modern and less fussy – a new lease of life. I think they sound marginally better too with much improved vibration isolation between the sub and the horn tubes.
What I love about the AGs is the way they seem to bring the performance into your living room. I think good els do much the same too. Shut your eyes and put on an early Norah Jones album (like her or loath her) and there she is, sitting on your equipment rack a few feet away. Same with other female artists in particular.
I’ll soon be home demo’ing an interesting amplifier I’d not heard of until a few weeks ago - recommended by a Mezzo XD owner on this forum. Bakoon 17R – ever heard of it?
Peter
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Gday Peter,
Yes, I totally agree about that scaffolding structure AG used to have. I actually didn't mind it at all, and it had this sort of solid industrial look and feel to it. In fact the Trio Classico has a very interesting frame, where the entire thing curves from the top towards the tweeter and onto the mid driver horn. if I'm correct it was possible to adjust this tweeter along the rails of the Trio Classico frames, where this was not possible with the earlier standard Trio version. I'm not sure what they have now, as I'm only familiar with the Trio Omega's and of course the Duo XDs and Mezzo line up.
Re. To Apogees- they're certainly not gone... in fact they are very alive! Thanks to two main people who are Apogee guru's, Hank in Netherlands and Graz, Graham Keet, who resides down unda in Queensland, which is upsate from where I am.
Graz's refurbed Apogees are superb! Truly in a class of their own, you would have to listen to one in order to get an idea. And at one point down the line, I will eventually get a pair of fully refurbed Apogee Duetta Signatures from him when I'm ready. Would certainly like to have these smaller Apogee ribbons as a second pair to complement the CLX's. And that will be an end to it.
Graz currently makes a top of the line model c called the definitive series, goes for over 150 grand a pair I believe... he uses the finest materials, steel frames, powerful magnets, top line caps and internal wiring, the whole Ribbon panels are just a complete different animal. Some of his projects take years to refurb. In fact I know of a very good mate who's currently getting his Apogee Divas done up by Graz, and they are in the final stages. The entire refurb project has taken him 3 years! Kid you not, that's the perfectionist Graz is. He'll take his sweet time but what you will be delivered is a product like no other! Trust me, they're just extraordinary!
Anyway, these are mainly for people who've been with panel types before and have an inner passion for panels. Once you've gone ribbon or stat full range in their perfect settings to deliver their optimal performance, there's simply no turning back. I will fly up to QLD just to hear these when they're ready, because the ones I've heard lately other than Divas, such as the Duettas and Calipers, plus a version he currently makes called the Synergy system is outstanding!
Btw, those prices in pounds aren't too bad, comparing to our $AUD, that's still pretty good for German engineering at it's finest! So perhaps our AG importers pricing wasn't far off...
Cheers to your AGs! I'm sure they're sounding marvelous!
I was also wondering whatever happened to the OP ... and his ML11a's . Well I guess he must be enjoying the music or gone on vacation.
Cheers mate,
RJ
Yes, I totally agree about that scaffolding structure AG used to have. I actually didn't mind it at all, and it had this sort of solid industrial look and feel to it. In fact the Trio Classico has a very interesting frame, where the entire thing curves from the top towards the tweeter and onto the mid driver horn. if I'm correct it was possible to adjust this tweeter along the rails of the Trio Classico frames, where this was not possible with the earlier standard Trio version. I'm not sure what they have now, as I'm only familiar with the Trio Omega's and of course the Duo XDs and Mezzo line up.
Re. To Apogees- they're certainly not gone... in fact they are very alive! Thanks to two main people who are Apogee guru's, Hank in Netherlands and Graz, Graham Keet, who resides down unda in Queensland, which is upsate from where I am.
Graz's refurbed Apogees are superb! Truly in a class of their own, you would have to listen to one in order to get an idea. And at one point down the line, I will eventually get a pair of fully refurbed Apogee Duetta Signatures from him when I'm ready. Would certainly like to have these smaller Apogee ribbons as a second pair to complement the CLX's. And that will be an end to it.
Graz currently makes a top of the line model c called the definitive series, goes for over 150 grand a pair I believe... he uses the finest materials, steel frames, powerful magnets, top line caps and internal wiring, the whole Ribbon panels are just a complete different animal. Some of his projects take years to refurb. In fact I know of a very good mate who's currently getting his Apogee Divas done up by Graz, and they are in the final stages. The entire refurb project has taken him 3 years! Kid you not, that's the perfectionist Graz is. He'll take his sweet time but what you will be delivered is a product like no other! Trust me, they're just extraordinary!
Anyway, these are mainly for people who've been with panel types before and have an inner passion for panels. Once you've gone ribbon or stat full range in their perfect settings to deliver their optimal performance, there's simply no turning back. I will fly up to QLD just to hear these when they're ready, because the ones I've heard lately other than Divas, such as the Duettas and Calipers, plus a version he currently makes called the Synergy system is outstanding!
Btw, those prices in pounds aren't too bad, comparing to our $AUD, that's still pretty good for German engineering at it's finest! So perhaps our AG importers pricing wasn't far off...
Cheers to your AGs! I'm sure they're sounding marvelous!
I was also wondering whatever happened to the OP ... and his ML11a's . Well I guess he must be enjoying the music or gone on vacation.
Cheers mate,
RJ
A bit late to the thread, and not a lot contribute, but I can say that the ML hybrids I heard at the 2020 Florida Audio Expo sounded somewhat lacking in the midrange as well. Just a touch too sterile and dry for my taste. And the subwoofer was cranked up extremely too loud. I don't know if the ESL's were the 11A or 13A, but here's a picture of them at the show.
Also, one of my brothers had a pair of the baby ElectroMotion ESL's, and they also lacked a little in the midrange. Just like the big boys, a bit too sterile.
In contrast, my 22 year old SL3's have excellent treble extension, but also have a full, organic midrange that puts life into the recordings.
Also, one of my brothers had a pair of the baby ElectroMotion ESL's, and they also lacked a little in the midrange. Just like the big boys, a bit too sterile.
In contrast, my 22 year old SL3's have excellent treble extension, but also have a full, organic midrange that puts life into the recordings.
Beautiful trim on those SL3s! I happened to have owned a pair for years as well back in the 1990s, and a visiting non-audiophile back then thought they sounded very realistic, just watching a DVD movie or something. They are really something special. I liked them a lot, but my electronics back then did not do them justice, in my mind.
Thank you. That's the original walnut trim (was an additional charge back then). I don't know how true it is, though it must be because I've read it several times over the years, people claim that the SL3 was one of ML's best loudspeakers ever made.
With past equipment, the SL3's sounded good, but nothing overly spectacular, and I even went to the extent of completely bypassing the internal crossovers and using an outboard digital crossover and two separate amps to power them, which worked, but I was obviously compensating for gear upstream that wasn't fully up to par.
Now that I'm running all of this Schiit gear and have the internal crossovers back in service, these speakers have never sounded better. Of course, a lot of that has to do with the room as well, but the gear upstream definitely is a major part of it as well. The SL3's are just so natural and organic sounding, giving vocals body, flesh, warmth and life. Treble is still airy and vibrant and detailed. Upper bass is tight and agile and seems to blend seamlessly into the panels, with the old Polk subs filling in that bottom octave.
And that's something else I've noticed which is odd but a pleasant surprise, the ML's playing full range along with the addition of the subs, the subs seem to dig a little bit deeper than ever before. They're crossed over 65 Hz and gains barely turned up.
I went through similar with my Martin Logan Montis. Spent a long time trying to find a solution to the "bright and shouty" problem (I should have probably just replaced the speakers!). The solution was adding a subwoofer; once the bass was extended down below 20Hz the sound became fully balanced and I haven't had that "distracted by an issue while listening" since...
All I can say is that other listeners were mightily impressed back then. We were watching a movie as I mentioned, and all of a sudden a door slams hard, and we are all looking to the right frightened, to see which doors it was. It was in the movie. Voices? Extra-ordinarily clear. Enjoy them!
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G'day maties,
Yes, can confirm that the SL3's are a beaut! And a very rare beaut. Way back then, I used mainly two completely different power amplifiers but the same preamp. Initially it was a Krell integrated ki150, drove the Sequels with no issues. The speed, definition and clarity was outstanding. Really enjoyed this combination along with a Krell CD player and a Classe CD player later on customer order.
After a short while I finally managed to order the ART preamp from CJ with the first Premier series amplifiers, the Prem11A. That combination took the performance of the SL3's to another dimension! I must say that oak trim was the best in any household setting. It was fantastic to add as part of high grade furniture, just beautiful!
Having read the thoughts on why these new hybrids may sound a little thin in certain freqs, I would summarise in three points:
1. The new X-Stat panels are capable of greater transparency and inner detail, so if the recording is not that great, that's exactly what you're going to hear.
2. I firmly believe that McIntosh amplifiers are not the ultimate performance measurement tools to drive these newer ML's optimally. I know they sort of look cool and great in photo shoots but that's about an average sound, and most hifi shows don't have optimally setup rooms either.
3. Try out any of these amplifiers with the ML Masterpiece series and you'll realise what I'm referring to in terms of outstanding presentation across the freq range:
Pass Labs, Momentums, CH Precision, Conrad johnson, VTL, ARC and one that I'm very fond of, Lamm Audio. These amplifiers will excel to such an extent and match so well with stats, it's an experience to learn from what real top quality these hybrid stats are capable of.
As I said, if it's on the recordings and whatever system is driving them, that's exactly what you're getting!
Cheers maties, have a good one.
RJ
Yes, can confirm that the SL3's are a beaut! And a very rare beaut. Way back then, I used mainly two completely different power amplifiers but the same preamp. Initially it was a Krell integrated ki150, drove the Sequels with no issues. The speed, definition and clarity was outstanding. Really enjoyed this combination along with a Krell CD player and a Classe CD player later on customer order.
After a short while I finally managed to order the ART preamp from CJ with the first Premier series amplifiers, the Prem11A. That combination took the performance of the SL3's to another dimension! I must say that oak trim was the best in any household setting. It was fantastic to add as part of high grade furniture, just beautiful!
Having read the thoughts on why these new hybrids may sound a little thin in certain freqs, I would summarise in three points:
1. The new X-Stat panels are capable of greater transparency and inner detail, so if the recording is not that great, that's exactly what you're going to hear.
2. I firmly believe that McIntosh amplifiers are not the ultimate performance measurement tools to drive these newer ML's optimally. I know they sort of look cool and great in photo shoots but that's about an average sound, and most hifi shows don't have optimally setup rooms either.
3. Try out any of these amplifiers with the ML Masterpiece series and you'll realise what I'm referring to in terms of outstanding presentation across the freq range:
Pass Labs, Momentums, CH Precision, Conrad johnson, VTL, ARC and one that I'm very fond of, Lamm Audio. These amplifiers will excel to such an extent and match so well with stats, it's an experience to learn from what real top quality these hybrid stats are capable of.
As I said, if it's on the recordings and whatever system is driving them, that's exactly what you're getting!
Cheers maties, have a good one.
RJ
Surprisingly, the SL3's seem to be a good match with the Schiit Aegir amps as well. This is the best I've ever heard these speakers in the 5 or so years that I've owned them.
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