Not happy with martin logan expression 11a

[mikel2910]

Hello all,

new member here, been looking for a thread like this due to need to make a decision soon, i own an avantgarde uno fino XD newest version driven by luxman l590ax2 very nice performance, i had a opportunity to own a used ML summit and was surprised with the sound stage and clearness, different flavor from Avantgarde. so now i have a chance to trade the uno to ML 15a brand new from a dealer which will be happening in a week. any input would be great! room size is 20x13. thanks a lot!

 

[Hear Here]

All I would say is PLEASE ARRANGE A HOME DEMO before you commit to change from Avantgarde to Martin Logan.

I was planning to do just that last year, but from 17 year old Unos to ML 13As. I had both systems at home for a couple of months and tried everything (including PBK tuning of the MLs and several amplifier changes), but the old Unos sparkled while the MLs were just good. I kept the Unos and have for sale the MLs - at a big loss to me but a bargain for the new owner. By good chance I then found a used pair of Duos from about 2006 (pre-Omega) and these sound better still.

I very much doubt the ML 15As will better your Uno XDs. Having said that, my room does no favours to panel speakers that squirt as much sound backwards as forwards, as the wall behind the speakers is at an angle and 12 ft behind one and 15 ft behind the other. Take care that you don't end up with speakers that may disappoint - MLs are difficult to sell used - mine are still looking for a new owner after a year even at the reasonable price I'm asking. Peter

PS - Remember your MLs are likely to need a different amplifier than the one you're using with your AGs. I bought Sanders Magtech and Gamut D200 Mk III to power the MLs, fortunately both bought used and sold at no loss after ditching the MLs

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Attn: Mikel2910

Yes, agreed on that mate, well stated by our fellow forum members, very valid points.

Infact that room is going to play a huge part on delivering the very best from stats. These are not only regular stats but the Ren15a's that you're referring to. These are basically a slightly scaled down version of the mighty Neoliths. Although the Ren15a's are scaled down they're by no means smaller, infact they can deliver some serious level of dynamics along with sheer bass drive. They do require a lot more room than you think, and I'm not too sure if the 20 by 13 is going to be adequate.
I'm thinking these measurements are in ft because it's not mentioned. I wouldn't think that would be in meters... that would be huge room!

Anyway, with the ARC (Anthem room correction) system software plus with added bass controls at the back, the Ren15a's can be adjusted to suit most room conditions and parameters. However, in smaller rooms this won't reproduce its true potential, it will work perhaps to a certain extent and most recordings should be pleasant... I would sincerely hope so. Whereas, recordings that possess such large dynamic swings and require lightning speed transient control, that the Ren15a's are well capable of, would require larger rooms. You also don't want to over-dampen the room, this will kill the natural overtones and those transient attacks that are brilliant to experience on such fine hybrid stats.

Having said that, I've had extensive experience with these properly setup, driven by CJ's ART150, Pass Labs XS series monoblocks and the Momentum amplifiers, it was superb!

The Ren15a's were actually on my favourite top three short list but I knew I was not that into bass. My short list of 5 consisted of the AG Duo XD's and both these systems were similarly priced and presented to me as special offers. Of course my true passion has always been full range stats, and so I closed on the CLX Art's.

Now, with regards to the points stated above, I would also think your AG horns would have delivered everything you're looking for... I do believe after you've auditioned the new ML Masterpiece series and especially the Ren15a's, this would be a very very different flavour, as you pointed out. You'll have to be true to yourself and go with what makes you fully engaged in the music, what makes you fully immersed in all of its emotions and which type of sound helps you to relax the most.. that's the one to get!

Again, address your room characteristics and its parameters and make a decision based on this aspect, afterall the room is basically a component itself.

All the best and, do let us know how it goes.
Cheers RJ

 

[steve59]

The 2000-2005 Tweeter days I was considering the VA beethovens and the sales person had a few returns of the ML's that were around 6' tall went for $7500 or so and she was offering me an open box pair for half price or the same as the beethovens. I wanted to like those speakers so much, I love a bargain, but they sounded terrible in their demo room and with 3 pair returned and stuffed into a corner I had a feeling they weren't going to sound any better at home. The bass and treble draw too much attention to the speakers distracting from the music.

 

[Hear Here]

Attn: Mikel2910

Yes, agreed on that mate, well stated by our fellow forum members, very valid points.

Infact that room is going to play a huge part on delivering the very best from stats. These are not only regular stats but the Ren15a's that you're referring to. These are basically a slightly scaled down version of the mighty Neoliths. Although the Ren15a's are scaled down they're by no means smaller, infact they can deliver some serious level of dynamics along with sheer bass drive. They do require a lot more room than you think, and I'm not too sure if the 20 by 13 is going to be adequate.
I'm thinking these measurements are in ft because it's not mentioned. I wouldn't think that would be in meters... that would be huge room!

Anyway, with the ARC (Anthem room correction) system software plus with added bass controls at the back, the Ren15a's can be adjusted to suit most room conditions and parameters. However, in smaller rooms this won't reproduce its true potential, it will work perhaps to a certain extent and most recordings should be pleasant... I would sincerely hope so. Whereas, recordings that possess such large dynamic swings and require lightning speed transient control, that the Ren15a's are well capable of, would require larger rooms. You also don't want to over-dampen the room, this will kill the natural overtones and those transient attacks that are brilliant to experience on such fine hybrid stats.

Having said that, I've had extensive experience with these properly setup, driven by CJ's ART150, Pass Labs XS series monoblocks and the Momentum amplifiers, it was superb!

The Ren15a's were actually on my favourite top three short list but I knew I was not that into bass. My short list of 5 consisted of the AG Duo XD's and both these systems were similarly priced and presented to me as special offers. Of course my true passion has always been full range stats, and so I closed on the CLX Art's.

Now, with regards to the points stated above, I would also think your AG horns would have delivered everything you're looking for... I do believe after you've auditioned the new ML Masterpiece series and especially the Ren15a's, this would be a very very different flavour, as you pointed out. You'll have to be true to yourself and go with what makes you fully engaged in the music, what makes you fully immersed in all of its emotions and which type of sound helps you to relax the most.. that's the one to get!

Again, address your room characteristics and its parameters and make a decision based on this aspect, afterall the room is basically a component itself.

All the best and, do let us know how it goes.
Cheers RJ

I think you make a good point about the size of the Mikel's room. 260 sq ft is quite small for speakers featuring twin 12" drivers per channel. My present listening room (where my 13As didn't set the music on fire) is 975 sq ft but with low ceilings. I'm sure the 15As would have been a better choice for my room, but people on the ML Owners forum assured me that 13A would be ideal. When I listened to 13As at a showroom, I was most impressed and reviews were encouraging. It was a different matter when I had them in my own room which only goes to enphasise the need to home audition any major speaker purchase first - a costly mstake for me!

Thinking more about the Mikel's situation just adds to my recommendation that he REALLY MUST arrange a home demo before committing to the purchase. This way he can compare his existing Uno Finos (with single 10" drivers) with the much more powerful 15As. My hunch is that he may stick with his Unos but also consider a move to Uno XDs with twin 10" drivers. My London room was about 320 sq ft and my old Unos (2003 vintage with twin 10" bass drivers) performed exceptionally well there. He may in fact wish to audition the 13As in his size of room - they just may sound better than the 15As and at not much more than half the price of the 15As, he'd have cash to spend on the new amp that he'll almost certainly need when changing from horns to electrostatics.

I hope he ends up with great sound from whichever speakers he decides upon. Peter