Oligarch audio? bite the hand that feeds you me thinks!

[zerostargeneral]

Well Carlos Sir,

I have read your posts and accept your challenge. My first pair of Loth x Polaris cost me 2k sterling, beating them cost 50k.

To top what I have owned for the last ten years will cost 1m.

From reading your posts and listening to your clips I personally believe you to be ultra knowledgeable if somewhat jaded and frustrated.

The mastering you have accomplished is obviously superb to me.

Am I wealthy? No. Will I achieve my goals? Pass but I will die trying.

With regard to the oligarchy in audio caveat emptor should suffice.

Kindest,G.

 

[sbnx]

If you compare each new component to what you own at home, you will find more expensive components better. This is the linear approach. When Bill had Analog domain and focal grande utopia and asethetix IO, better SS amps, with Crystal Absolute Dream speaker cable and the most expensive Tara power cords etc would have been the solution to reach Nirvana.

To Sbnx's point, yes th L10 is better than L1. One guy in London did that shift, and his L10 was better than his Soulution 725 as well marginally. I did that compare. Yet, another system in London found the Soulution 720 to be better than 725, which I believe is what Shakti found as well. And this other guy's system set up with the Soulution 720 sandwiched between Allnic phono and pre is completely different to the all CH 10 system in the other place. I like both. The Allnic one is cheaper. Sure, in his system the L10 might be better than his Soulution 720. However, these compares are the linear approaches that will almost always take you to the more expensive product.

Yet, by far the best system was the one with Mayer 10y and Mayer 46. And that is what Bill shifted to after listening to it, because he couldn't have gone that far ahead, even close, with his linear approach. with one bang he got rid of all his old system, and slowly started building in a new direction. Overall cost for final point will be way lower, sonic nirvana for him multiple times higher.

I am not sure where you were going with all of that. Comparing CH to Allnic is a bit like comparing apples to broccoli. In general, that sounded a bit like throwing a bunch of noodles at the wall and seeing what stuck.

Just to clarify, my point wasn't specifically about the L1 vs L10. It was to say that there is absolute performance and there is the price to performance ratio. Some people play in one space and some people play in the other space. Steven is clearly in the price/performance space.

Regarding the linearity you mentioned. Certainly, we can spend more money and get better performance. Usually this is by moving up the models a specific brand offers e.g. L1 to L10. But you can also spend more money and not get better performance which you provided the Solution example. This used to be discussed much more when a company would come out with version 2 and a lot of audiophiles would say "version 1 was better". Somehow this critical listening seems to have greatly diminished and people just blindly upgrade to the version 2 because "it must be better, right".

Sometimes, getting a sonic upgrade does require a "lateral" move to a different company. We might find that the different brand that we have just experienced does provide better sound for less money than we had spent on the top end of the brand we currently have. All good. I don't think this generally changes the spend more/get more model. As the new component is likely in the same cost bracket. In other words, I doubt we moved from a $50K preamp to a $15K preamp. (but who knows)

I don't know how this thread turned onto the repair subject. I would propose that anyone buying Oligarch equipment can have it repaired or replaced. It is much more about the hassle and not the expense. The issue really becomes one of customer service. I think most buying this level of gear are intolerant of poor customer service. This is not isolated to solid state gear. There are plenty of bad stories related to some high profile brands of tube amps.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Guys since when is 100.000 K oligarch money .

Its like chump change / bribe money .

Not worthy of oligarchs

 

[sbnx]

Guys since when is 100.000 K oligarch money .

Its like chump change / bribe money .

Not worthy of oligarchs

Agreed. It is just the number the SS put on a component that pushed into that category. It seems arbitrary.

 

[bonzo75]

Sometimes, getting a sonic upgrade does require a "lateral" move to a different company...In other words, I doubt we moved from a $50K preamp to a $15K preamp. (but who knows)

You could, if you changed approaches. In my example, the Soulution 725, CH L1, and CH L10 were one approach. The Mayer 10y preamp was for an entirely different system philosophy. What worked for your Vivid may or may not be the best call for your trios.

It is no different than when people get upswing from one expensive dac to another especially in the same line, but realize what they have been missing out on when they listen to analog that can be lower priced than their dacs.

 

[JackD201]

I know a friend in Hong Kong whose family runs a real estate developer and is oligarch rich. He is also an excellent cellist himself, and clearly not musically illiterate. He has been a very reliable Wilson customer, always being one of the first if not the first to buy any flagship Wilson speakers. One time, when a group of us visited him, we were amazed to find him listening to a pair of Gallo Nucleus Reference speakers, placed in front of his massive Wilsons. He then confided that he only turns the Wilsons on when certain (oligarch grade) audiophile friends come to visit, otherwise, he listens to the Gallo speakers.

Not that he'd care but I feel bad for the guy.

There's a story that there is a guy who bought a system made up of top of the line products at the time (late 90s?) Supposedly he did all that so he could enjoy playing Sony's GranTurismo on his Playstation with better immersion. I would have used pro gear for that application but it is said he felt he got his money's worth. At least the mythical guy got his satisfaction.

 

[Lagonda]

I know a friend in Hong Kong whose family runs a real estate developer and is oligarch rich. He is also an excellent cellist himself, and clearly not musically illiterate. He has been a very reliable Wilson customer, always being one of the first if not the first to buy any flagship Wilson speakers. One time, when a group of us visited him, we were amazed to find him listening to a pair of Gallo Nucleus Reference speakers, placed in front of his massive Wilsons. He then confided that he only turns the Wilsons on when certain (oligarch grade) audiophile friends come to visit, otherwise, he listens to the Gallo speakers.

A typical Wilson customer !

 

[Lee]

So what about Steven's 3 points? Do you need to spend over $50K to get top tier music reproduction? I think in today's market this is the unfortunate reality. However, spending $500k doesn't even guarantee mediocre music without proper setup and optimization. Is spending over $100K on a pair of speakers or other component all aout vanity and status? Not in all cases. For some, yes. And this is having the unfortunate side effect of driving prices higher. Does spending more get you more? Definitely not. But there are plenty of examples where the more expensive product is better both objectively and subjectively.
Of course this is all just my opinion. You are free to ignore and move on with your life.

When I was at TAS, we asked several high end manufacturers about what their typical customer looked like. The consensus was that most were in it for the sound. Several pointed to cases where the means were modest but the dedication of the audiophile saving up led to flagship and near flagship speaker purchases. Only in a few cases were billionaires buying for show. Most were dedicated audiophiles, like Jim Clark of Netscape fame or Andy Sandler of Wall Street fame.

I think this is the real hole in a lot of the theories floated here. The vast majority in the hobby really are in it for the sound and not the show.

 

[Rt66indierock]

So now we have a unhappy "reviewer" throwing everyone under the bus, telling bull shit stories about the man that hired him, and whining about what he and others were involved in creating. I know he isn't very important , which may be a huge understatement, but folks the review process has steered its course into a major storm and now adding this with some of the other editorials about long term loans, heavily discounted special accommodations, prepaid trips, gifts, expensive dinners this article seems to be about the pot calling the kettle black.
Lets now piss on the clients that buy high end audio, the dealers who purchase and sell it and the other portion of the magazine /review industry that praise it.
So what's it going to be boy? to quote the song.
Me, well I am not surprised that the Industry is starting to turn on itself. Maybe a good look in the mirror is required to make some real change.

Elliot,

Why are you bothered by Steven Stone?

• Former camera shop owner
• Writer for The Absolute Sound
• Has hearing damage.
• Likes MQA

High end audio does not want to look in the mirror. They are forced to because of their support of MQA.

At the very least everyone who wrote anything positive about MQA should be held accountable. A very large group the hobby and the industry may be better without. And a message sent to everyone in the audio world don’t try this again.

Here is my opinion of Harry Pearson. America would be a better place if he had stayed an environmental reporter.

Everyone in high end audio needs to rethink the value of editors and reviewers to the hobby and industry.

Stephen

 

[Porsche]

silly how some think they have to justify how they spend there money, even worse tho when others condemn those that spend there money however they want, to each there own, its my money and I spend it however I choose

 

[cjfrbw]

Oligarchs need love, too. They just need love that costs a lot more.

 

[Lee]

silly how some think they have to justify how they spend there money, even worse tho when others condemn those that spend there money however they want, to each there own, its my money and I spend it however I choose

One of the great things about getting older, imho, is that you realize that no one truly has it all figured out (and we see the failures of hero after hero) therefore confidence builds in trusting your gut and taking your own path. Indeed, many of us really don't care what others think anymore.

 

[Lee]

Elliot,

Why are you bothered by Steven Stone?

• Former camera shop owner
• Writer for The Absolute Sound
• Has hearing damage.
• Likes MQA

High end audio does not want to look in the mirror. They are forced to because of their support of MQA.

At the very least everyone who wrote anything positive about MQA should be held accountable. A very large group the hobby and the industry may be better without. And a message sent to everyone in the audio world don’t try this again.

Here is my opinion of Harry Pearson. America would be a better place if he had stayed an environmental reporter.

Everyone in high end audio needs to rethink the value of editors and reviewers to the hobby and industry.

Stephen

How dare someone be a "former camera shop owner"!

 

[Republicoftexas69]

How one spends, or doesn't spend ones money is their business. Do I think one is a fool for spending $60K on a DAC? No I do not I am happy for them that they can. Envious maybe a little, but I hade my choices in life, and have no regrets.

 

[Atmasphere]

Reading this thread, two things kept popping up for me.

The first is something called the Veblen Effect, which is the phenomena where when something is priced higher, we humans tend to think it also has greater value, which is often not true (and sometimes it is...). The example given when I first read about this was college tuition. Colleges found that when they lowered prices to get more enrollment, enrollment fell off. They found that if they raised prices then enrollment increased. They learned they had to have a good story about why the price was so high/going up, but that was all.

The second thing that came up was the whole thing about what is needed in a high end audio component for it to be considered high end. This question was first put to me 30 years ago so I've had a lot of time to think about it:

High end audio is driven by intention, not price.

What this means is that if something is carefully engineered, it can sound better or perform better (depending entirely on which metric is more important to you) than something costing several times more. This might happen because a product is priced to a formula rather than what the market will bear or it might simply be engineered better (which might cost more in R&D but might be cheaper in production). If a designer's intention is to do the best he can with the best components he can get, it may or may not be more expensive. IOW price really has nothing to do with it which is not the same as saying it will be cheap- it might be very expensive. Until you know a lot more about the product and the designer's intention, there really isn't any way to know.

A third thing pops up for me upon writing this. The best in any human endeavor tend to be best because they love it, not because they want to make money. If they got rich doing it so much the better.

 

[Elliot G.]

Elliot,

Why are you bothered by Steven Stone?

• Former camera shop owner
• Writer for The Absolute Sound
• Has hearing damage.
• Likes MQA

High end audio does not want to look in the mirror. They are forced to because of their support of MQA.

At the very least everyone who wrote anything positive about MQA should be held accountable. A very large group the hobby and the industry may be better without. And a message sent to everyone in the audio world don’t try this again.

Here is my opinion of Harry Pearson. America would be a better place if he had stayed an environmental reporter.

Everyone in high end audio needs to rethink the value of editors and reviewers to the hobby and industry.

Stephen

there is a strange dichotomy when someone who is a senior writer for a publication is dissing the gear that the editor and senior reviewer are touting. I think this is interesting , I do not find Mr. Stone of anything significant but this crapping where one eats is IMHO.

 

[Elliot G.]

I do also find it very interesting that those who can't afford things want to put down those that can and in doing so label them Oligarchs/fools/noobs/morons/ assholes/snobs etc. There is much i this world that is way above my means and to appreciate it is fun to me even if I will never attain it. It is also true that in Audio some of this OLigarch tech does trickle down to lesser non- garchs !
For those of us that manufacturer/distribute/sell and service we ar ethankful for those who support what we do and sadly most of the great ones are not audiophiles. Curious huh?

 

[Rt66indierock]

there is a strange dichotomy when someone who is a senior writer for a publication is dissing the gear that the editor and senior reviewer are touting. I think this is interesting , I do not find Mr. Stone of anything significant but this crapping where one eats is IMHO.

Just one more example of high end audio not keeping their story straight.

 

[bonzo75]

Just one more example of high end audio not keeping their story straight.

maybe they are just trying to show a balanced view after all the blowback on this forum

 

[Elliot G.]

Reading this thread, two things kept popping up for me.

The first is something called the Veblen Effect, which is the phenomena where when something is priced higher, we humans tend to think it also has greater value, which is often not true (and sometimes it is...). The example given when I first read about this was college tuition. Colleges found that when they lowered prices to get more enrollment, enrollment fell off. They found that if they raised prices then enrollment increased. They learned they had to have a good story about why the price was so high/going up, but that was all.

The second thing that came up was the whole thing about what is needed in a high end audio component for it to be considered high end. This question was first put to me 30 years ago so I've had a lot of time to think about it:

High end audio is driven by intention, not price.

What this means is that if something is carefully engineered, it can sound better or perform better (depending entirely on which metric is more important to you) than something costing several times more. This might happen because a product is priced to a formula rather than what the market will bear or it might simply be engineered better (which might cost more in R&D but might be cheaper in production). If a designer's intention is to do the best he can with the best components he can get, it may or may not be more expensive. IOW price really has nothing to do with it which is not the same as saying it will be cheap- it might be very expensive. Until you know a lot more about the product and the designer's intention, there really isn't any way to know.

A third thing pops up for me upon writing this. The best in any human endeavor tend to be best because they love it, not because they want to make money. If they got rich doing it so much the better.

I do believe that the best designers build what they can to the best of their ability , available technology and thier knowledge and experience.
I can speak about Oliver Gobel who never considers the price when he is designing anything. I have asked for lower priced entry level speakers and his answer was I can build something smaller with a lesser footprint however this does not mean that it will significantly or less expensive than the models we have. He will not compromise on the materials or parts so therefore the price is only the end result of the design and build. Maybe there are companies that will build anything to any price point, I see companies with 100's of products , perhaps questioning thier motivation and goals is something some may want to do, not me , everyone can do what they think is right for their business, however personally I have tried to walk away from those companies that want to be all things to all people. I don't believe that is possible and in doing so value becomes lost.