Oligarch audio? bite the hand that feeds you me thinks!

[adrianywu]

It's very easy to hear the difference between Parasound, Bryston, and some of the expensive SS amps. That aside, whether you want SS, SETs, or OTLs, such preferences drive the cost difference more to get quality. For example, I think the best SS amps are expensive. But with SEts, you can get great stuff at much better prices. Generally, if you are in the SS approach, your system will end up costing more if you want the best sound.

Why should SS cost more than tube amps ? Transistors cost pennies, and these amps don't need output transformers, the most expensive component in a tube amp. As for the statement that it is very easy to hear the difference between Bryston and something (that shall remain anonymous but highly touted by magazine reviewers) costing 10 times more, I am speaking from experience, when the importer (who is a friend) brought a pair round and we compared them in my recording partner's system to his Bryston. The importer was a bit embarrassed, but he has always been honest. I guess someone with golden ears might beg to differ, but it is important not to fall into the trap of confirmation bias. The only time I thought an expensive amp was clearly superior was when I had the chance to play around with the Lamm ML3, but my experience with pretty much all "Oligarch" SS amps has been unimpressive.

 

[RCottin]

Whether he is literally accurate or not, you seem to have missed his point: that these extravagantly priced components are more for “show” than of substance.

Hi Carlos, thank you for your reply. I did not missed the point, i just ignored it as it is just an opinion with not substance or support. What I found relevant is the use of a word that currently have such a negative connotation, and feel proud of it, just because somebody went above his imaginary threshold.

 

[bonzo75]

Why should SS cost more than tube amps ? Transistors cost pennies, and these amps don't need output transformers, the most expensive component in a tube amp. As for the statement that it is very easy to hear the difference between Bryston and something (that shall remain anonymous but highly touted by magazine reviewers) costing 10 times more, I am speaking from experience, when the importer (who is a friend) brought a pair round and we compared them in my recording partner's system to his Bryston. The importer was a bit embarrassed, but he has always been honest. I guess someone with golden ears might beg to differ, but it is important not to fall into the trap of confirmation bias. The only time I thought an expensive amp was clearly superior was when I had the chance to play around with the Lamm ML3, but my experience with pretty much all "Oligarch" SS amps has been unimpressive.

in SS amps, apart from a first watt for certain applications, and old Krell for apogee, I haven’t found a good cheap SS amp. Parasound has drive and has not the tone is so crude. Auditionet, CH, if well matched, give good quality. They trap up in the entire chain. And unlike SETs, you need to make sure you buy them through a channel that can service them properly. I could be wrong, but You can’t get your CH fixed at the local technician if something happens to it

 

[Elliot G.]

rice to signal quality is just ridiculous in audio. It is just an NLF because it does happen to a certain point, so we extrapolate the line further. As I said, I find the upside in HT, and if I had the money, would pay up more for records and have back up copies too, hunt down master tapes, (yes, I know you did some of this and I respect that), but there is just no further value in audio gear. Those with more money should then set up different rooms for different system/music approaches instead of just spending more on one hoping to get additional delta.

no matter the thread, no matter the subject the reply is always a BROKEN RECORD.
How many times in how many places can you say the same thing even when it has nothing to do with the subject.
please I beg you its really seriously boring at this point. You can do better

 

[Elliot G.]

the point of posting this ridiculous article was
Steve Stone is a senior writer at TAS. TAS is the same publication that argued for long term equipment loans as a win win. TAS has two senior reviewers that both have well over 1 million dollars of expensive loaned gear in their "reference systems"
This article seems to be way off base for TAS and perhaps it is time for all the audio press to actually look in the mirror as to their future and thei importance or lack of it going forward. IMO making light of your readers, reviewers, clients, dealers and equipment suppliers is probably not good business.
I for one have to question any participation going forward with spending money in a place that believes all expensive gear is only for show and has no sonic value.

 

[bonzo75]

no matter the thread, no matter the subject the reply is always a BROKEN RECORD.
How many times in how many places can you say the same thing even when it has nothing to do with the subject.
please I beg you its really seriously boring at this point. You can do better

that’s the subject of the thread. You started it. Maybe all the others to stop claiming price gave them quality, like 160k. Sounds like a broken record until you realise the number of records they have.

 

[Al M.]

that’s the subject of the thread. You started it. Maybe all the others to stop claiming price gave them quality, like 160k. Sounds like a broken record until you realise the number of records they have.

Wow, you are in a good mood today.

 

[bonzo75]

Wow, you are in a good mood today.

i am between sets. Like bench sets


Nothing is more disappointing than reading a price is justified comment

 

[Al M.]

i am between sets. Like bench sets


Nothing is more disappointing than reading a price is justified comment

So how much are the big Western Electric horns that you like so much? Less than $ 160K or even $ 100K?

 

[Robh3606]

US$100,000 is an arbitrary, and, therefore, kind of stupid threshold. I am far from the cable "denier." I think cables are fixed parametric equalizers (credit to Phil Ressler) and they make our systems sound different. But I choose to spend relatively little money on cables.

The Gryphon Pendragons six years ago cost US$160,000. That is almost as much as my beloved Bellini cost in 2001. Yet, for me, it is the best loudspeaker in the world that I have heard. And in today's terms $160,000 barely gets you a Wilson Audio Alexx V. This may sound ridiculous to you, and I totally respect you if it does, but I actually think the Pendragons were a relatively decent value.

And there's no "status" in Pendragons, because almost nobody even knows what the hell they are, and nobody knew what they were when I auditioned them. And nobody knew what they were when I ordered them. They are very far from a status symbol, very far from a Veblen good, such as a well-known Ferrari.

I found very little of value or substance in Steven Stone's article. Mostly I found capricious envy.

I don't think anyone outside these forums has heard of or even know's about these 100,000 plus components. I don't see any of this stuff as a status symbol. Maybe in a very small circle. It's not like driving a Ferrari which has massive recognition by the public in general.

Rob

 

[bonzo75]

So how much are the big Western Electric horns that you like so much? Less than $ 160K or even $ 100K?

the WE price is for rarity and collectibility too. It sounds great, but the requirement for the price is clear. You should know if you are paying for sonics, investment in rare items, service, bespoke experience, what? Why pay so much for a current production?

JC Morrison himself advised me Altec in the WE room, as did Jack Robert’s, as second choice to WE, and they are much easily available

 

[Robh3606]

the WE price is for rarity and collectibility too. It sounds great, but the requirement for the price is clear. You should know if you are paying for sonics, investment in rare items, service, bespoke experience, what? Why pay so much for a current production?

JC Morrison himself advised me Altec in the WE room, as did Jack Robert’s, as second choice to WE, and they are much easily available

I can understand that kind of money for original un molested drivers and horn's as they were mostly disposed of after more modern cinema systems were installed in theaters. They are important technological and historic milestones.

What I don't get is the reproductions??? I agree just use ALTEC although unfortunately it is difficult to service if needed.

Rob

 

[mtemur]

Most of the Hi-End audio gear is overpriced, but that doesn't mean they don't sound any better than lower priced counterparts. I don't mean all extremely expensive products sound best, some sound great some don't.

There are many expensive and great sounding amps, speakers, turntables etc. If you want the best and can afford it you can buy them. None of the audiophiles I know is an oligarch and all of them bought those extremely high priced gear because of it's sound. Of course there are exceptions who buy expensive gear just because they can afford it.

IMHO in order to call all the expensive gear unnecessary with prejudice and without owning any of them sounds irrational. I can not afford a Ferrari, a 50mt yacht or any expensive audio gear. It doesn't mean they're all bad because I don't have the money to buy them. IMHO judgement of people who can really afford them is important.

 

[Kingrex]

I don't think anyone has said the uber prices gear is vastly better. Rather that equipment is extracting the last bit of goodness. And audiophile are interested in that last bit. So its natural someone with the available cash is going to buy it based upon basically everyone backing up the claim. Having heard it or not.

Its this mindset that is killing the middle price market in audio. Why buy 90%. Save your money and get 100%. Or just buy a low $$$ system that plays great reguardless of price.

 

[bonzo75]

I can understand that kind of money for original un molested drivers and horn's as they were mostly disposed of after more modern cinema systems were installed in theaters. They are important technological and historic milestones.

What I don't get is the reproductions??? I agree just use ALTEC although unfortunately it is difficult to service if needed.

Rob

the reproduction drivers by GPA were quite inexpensive until they were bought by a private equity company which bumped up the driver prices to 3k a pair. Not sure if it went up more now

 

[bonzo75]

Most of the Hi-End audio gear is overpriced, but that doesn't mean they don't sound any better than lower priced counterparts. Not all extremely expensive products sound best but some sound great some don't.

There are many expensive and great sounding amps, speakers, turntables etc. If you want the best and can afford it you can buy them. None of the audiophiles I know is an oligarch and all of them bought those extremely high priced gear because of it's sound. Of course there are exceptions who buy expensive gear just because he can afford it.

IMHO in order to call all the expensive gear unnecessary with preudice without owning any of them sounds irrational. I can not afford a Ferrari, a 50mt yacht or any expensive audio gear, but it doesn't mean they're bad because I don't have the money to buy them. IMHO judgement of people who can really afford them is important.

the Ferrari has a clear status symbol too . You are not buying it for speed on your road or mileage.

for every expensive audio gear component you can find that sounds good, there will be a lower price alternative if you search. While you will get some benefit of increase in price till a point after that point the delta will not be there

 

[facten]

I don't think anyone outside these forums has heard of or even know's about these 100,000 plus components.

I agree; and you can drop that dollar amount quite a bit and I think, at least in my experiences, that your point still applies . Family, friends and most acquaintances of mine have no awareness of anything 'high end" audio, and frankly no interest in spending money on it.

 

[Solypsa]

These topics around money are always tough.

Kedar has ( by virtue of his significant investment in time and money ) found a niche offering a lot of value vis a vis his priorities. And I happen to agree with his take most of the time ( not that that matters ).

But I also get sad when people oversimplify what it takes to design something special and then make it commercially viable.

Since I love analog, cart manufacture is a great example. It's so easy to say ' a few ounces of stone, wood and metal how much can this be worth '. And I understand that outlook. Now how many of the high earners that can even talk about this gear want to sit down, mill out the parts, make 50 or 100 to get them sounding good, make them one at a time thereafter, and service them when the buyer jams his finger into the cantilever, and sell them for $500? Anyone?

Of course cars were mentioned. Sure why buy an ex Ferrari factory racer for 7 figures when you can buy a Radical ( or similar ) for way less. Yet money still matters when boundaries are pushed. Not to mention manufacturer longevity.

OK back to audio. I agree that uber price gear is about a certain fashion. How could it not be?

So where does that leave us?

 

[andromedaaudio]

I think there is value to be had at any price .


To dismiss things just because they are expensive is dumb / narrowminded ( plus a bit of jealousy comes into play i assume )

 

[Al M.]

the WE price is for rarity and collectibility too. It sounds great, but the requirement for the price is clear. You should know if you are paying for sonics, investment in rare items, service, bespoke experience, what? Why pay so much for a current production?

JC Morrison himself advised me Altec in the WE room, as did Jack Robert’s, as second choice to WE, and they are much easily available

You always find an excuse for your ever more radicalized statements.