So tell us, what is the motivation of these “uber-wealthy (truly uber) category” folks when the purchase, I assume the “Uber” expensive components? Are the looking for the “best” or the “most expensive”? How knowledgeable are these “uber-wealthy (truly uber) category” folks on what’s available out there? How knowledgeable are you on what is available out there?
Oligarch audio? bite the hand that feeds you me thinks!
- Thread starter Elliot G.
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So tell us, what is the motivation of these “uber-wealthy (truly uber) category” folks when the purchase, I assume the “Uber” expensive components? Are the looking for the “best” or the “most expensive”? How knowledgeable are these “uber-wealthy (truly uber) category” folks on what’s available out there? How knowledgeable are you on what is available out there?
Good afternoon to you, Carlos. I just want to let you know that there have been recent changes to the management team here at the WBF and that this kind of post stops right here and now.
This is not your personal playground and posts like this will no longer be tolerated. With this post, you are -
1) Being very rude
2) Speaking off topic
3) Violating the TOS #2, #6 and I want you to be very aware of #17
4) This is disruptive to the well being of this community
5) Derogatory toward a fellow member
Please consider this a formal public warning. Because this is not your first offense and the disruptions and rudeness have been so common with your style of posting, you will now be enjoying a 3 day involuntary vacation from the WBF. Upon your return, posts like this will no longer be tolerated and the new team here at the WBF will make a decision as to how long your next ban will be. I can assure you of this....the next one will be at a much longer length of time.
With that said, this decision is not open for public debate.
You will either be respectful to those you speak with on this forum or you will no longer be a welcomed a member here at the WBF.
Tom
IMO you should have referred this fact in your OP. The Steve Stone biased and somewhat unfair article conflicts with the TAS objectives and the whole high end audio. Surely TAS should drop his name from the senior writer list and forget about his existence.
Fortunately we have forums such as WBF where we can openly discuss the reality of the high-end, not just the envious or disappointed perspective of those who misunderstand the motivation, challenge and power of a subjective hobby ruled by enlightened individual preference.
BTW, I am not interested in discussing audio from a social economical perspective - my interests are mostly gear, performance and preference.
Hello
Do you know anything about the progression of cinema speaker development?? Altec would be a logical suggestion based on availability and actual history.
Rob
IMO both surpassed by fuses and grounding boxes. In the high-end industry the scale of production and the manufacturing methods can make prices hard to accept.
The point is that when we have a very successful experience with something very expensive it is hard to go back for a lower price/quality item. But is always possible to change our sound priorities to start a new type of audio experience without much pain.
I’d say that they are interested in a number of things, but entertainment would probably be the top of the list. Some are, of course, more knowledgeable than others. How knowledge am I? I guess I’d say the same thing about me. But my job is not to sell them equipment but to set up what they already own. Where I am ignorant about a product, I try to educate myself as best I can to serve my client.
Let there not be contrarian opinions expressed outside the building we control. For they damage the spirit and injure our bank accounts. Sounds vaguely familiar to current politics.
I think there is an examination of the status quo happening in all areas of society. I've seen how this makes many people anxious. I welcome contrarian opinions, and an opportunity to examine my own inbuilt biases. I guess I don't have a lot invested in preserving the status quo, I just want audio gear that gets me to my ears bliss.
I have read quite a bit of Steven Stone's writing in the last year. I haven't really vibed with his opinions. Part of that is the lower $$ level he seems comfortable playing in. I couldn't live with Topping sound in most cases as an example (and I've had a few pieces in the last few years). But I do read him and I do think his value influenced perspective is an asset to TAS. With that value perspective comes a value world view, no surprises there.
I was recently having a conversation with a friend who recently upped their net worth into the lower 8 figures. They were asking about music and audio systems, and I said I could probably help them assemble a system that would give them incredible musical satisfaction for about $15,000. They just balked at me and said they couldn't imagine spending that kind of money on an audio system. Perspective is everything.
Late to the party (again).
Steven's article is a home run from a writers perspective. As a writer you want your audience to sit up and say Hmmmm. You want your readers to think something like --does this guy have a point and do I agree with it? Based on all of this discussion it looks like a success.
His points seem to be: 1. You don't have to spend more than $50K to have a system that fully delivers the musical experience. 2. Spending more that this is about vanity and status. 3. Spending more doesn't necessarily get you more, but to each his own.
By Steven's definition, I have components at an "Oligarch" level. However, I can assure you I don't spend my weekends sailing around on a 100 foot yacht. I chose the components I have based on the performance I could get for what I could spend on each of them. (Thus I don't have a Wadax DAC)
I have not heard Steven's $50K system. I am sure it sounds great and is well curated. Does it deliver the FULL musical experience? Can you fully believe there is a small chamber orchestra in the room? Can it play Jazz, Vocals, Orchestral, EDM, Rock etc. all with the scale each deserves? I don't know but I would be shocked if it could do everything without compromise for a $50K system cost. But again I don't know.
What I can say is that a $50K system can sound better than a $500K system. This is where setup comes into play. Like a lot of you (an one specfically)I have heard a lot of the top speakers XVX, M9, Stenheim, etc., setup in dealer showrooms where the musical performance was less than stellar. Is it becasue these speakers are not capable of greatness? No, the system is simply not optimized. I find it appalling to go to a dealer who is demoing a $500K+ system and it sounds bad. For that kind of money the music should be compelling. But I digress.
There are some components that offer true absolute performance and there are some that offer great price/performance. For example, I own a Simaudio Moon 740P preamp and I own a CH L10. The 740P is a good SS preamp in its price range, but in no way has the performance level of an L1/X1 let alone an L10. Can someone setup a system that has musical engagement with the 740P. Sure. But it will have certain flaws that the listener is going to have to ignore. I have an L10 because it is far more capable (with it's low noise floor, transparency, dyanmaics and adjustability) to deliver a sound that is like real musicians in my room with me. It is simply a choice I can and did make. Did I buy the L10 out for some kind of status symbol? That is laughable. Most of the people I know have never heard of CH precision nor Simaudio. In fact, they would think I lost my mind for not buying a Lexus instead of an L10. This does not mean that a certain segment of the audio equipment buying contengent doesn't do this for vanity. I think this is the point of frustration: this small, very wealthy group is percieved as driving the prices out of reach in the name of vanity.
As Steven states more expensive doesn't mean better. Where it all goes wrong is the criteria in which it is judged. If we are after a gold plated receiver then what we get is receiver sound that has enough bling to blind us from how unsoulful it sounds. We are too polite. We go somewhere and they show us a $1M speaker or system and we say "Wow that is awesome!". Then we listen to some music and we think Uggg. That is not so awesome. I can't believe that he spent $1M on that. But, what do we say? "That sounds great. Thanks for letting me listen to your system." (I am guilty of this) The poor guy thinks he has great sound becasue that is what everyone tells him. And he thinks the person was impressed by his $1M system. Maybe we are struck by the visual beauty of the system but the music it makes is dreadful. I think deep down the guy knows it really doesn't sound that great but he has no reason to believe otherwise as he keeps getting told how great it sounds. This phenomena almost got me out of audio as I will explain.
Imagine what might happen if he was told by someone, "Hey, you should go check out Steven's system." Knowing that Steven only spent $50k and it sounds better than this guy's $1M system. Please allow me a simple story: A similar thing happened to me a little over 10 years ago. At the time I had Wilson Maxx2's with Spectral amps, preamp, CD etc. So that system was already well over $100K in 2007. I met an audiophile at work and he invited me over to his place. I went into his dedicated room. It looked like a disaster of a science lab. (audio sh*t everywhere) He had horns sitting on end tables with DIY woofers. The crossover parts were out on a board. It was driven by a modified CJ tube amp direct wired to the wall. The CD player was a Marantz from the 1980's that he had heavily modified. All of this sitting on foam on the floor. I don't know if he even had $10K in that system. But, I could not believe how good that system sounded with vocals and jazz. (It could not do Orchestral or heavy rock.) But wow, could it do vocals. I still remember that sound. It was at that point I started to take a serious look at audio. My assessment was that something was seriously wrong with the way I was being programmed to think about audio. I won't mention any names but you all know who the programmers were/are.
So what about Steven's 3 points? Do you need to spend over $50K to get top tier music reproduction? I think in today's market this is the unfortunate reality. However, spending $500k doesn't even guarantee mediocre music without proper setup and optimization. Is spending over $100K on a pair of speakers or other component all aout vanity and status? Not in all cases. For some, yes. And this is having the unfortunate side effect of driving prices higher. Does spending more get you more? Definitely not. But there are plenty of examples where the more expensive product is better both objectively and subjectively.
Of course this is all just my opinion. You are free to ignore and move on with your life.
Steven's article is a home run from a writers perspective. As a writer you want your audience to sit up and say Hmmmm. You want your readers to think something like --does this guy have a point and do I agree with it? Based on all of this discussion it looks like a success.
His points seem to be: 1. You don't have to spend more than $50K to have a system that fully delivers the musical experience. 2. Spending more that this is about vanity and status. 3. Spending more doesn't necessarily get you more, but to each his own.
By Steven's definition, I have components at an "Oligarch" level. However, I can assure you I don't spend my weekends sailing around on a 100 foot yacht. I chose the components I have based on the performance I could get for what I could spend on each of them. (Thus I don't have a Wadax DAC)
I have not heard Steven's $50K system. I am sure it sounds great and is well curated. Does it deliver the FULL musical experience? Can you fully believe there is a small chamber orchestra in the room? Can it play Jazz, Vocals, Orchestral, EDM, Rock etc. all with the scale each deserves? I don't know but I would be shocked if it could do everything without compromise for a $50K system cost. But again I don't know.
What I can say is that a $50K system can sound better than a $500K system. This is where setup comes into play. Like a lot of you (an one specfically)I have heard a lot of the top speakers XVX, M9, Stenheim, etc., setup in dealer showrooms where the musical performance was less than stellar. Is it becasue these speakers are not capable of greatness? No, the system is simply not optimized. I find it appalling to go to a dealer who is demoing a $500K+ system and it sounds bad. For that kind of money the music should be compelling. But I digress.
There are some components that offer true absolute performance and there are some that offer great price/performance. For example, I own a Simaudio Moon 740P preamp and I own a CH L10. The 740P is a good SS preamp in its price range, but in no way has the performance level of an L1/X1 let alone an L10. Can someone setup a system that has musical engagement with the 740P. Sure. But it will have certain flaws that the listener is going to have to ignore. I have an L10 because it is far more capable (with it's low noise floor, transparency, dyanmaics and adjustability) to deliver a sound that is like real musicians in my room with me. It is simply a choice I can and did make. Did I buy the L10 out for some kind of status symbol? That is laughable. Most of the people I know have never heard of CH precision nor Simaudio. In fact, they would think I lost my mind for not buying a Lexus instead of an L10. This does not mean that a certain segment of the audio equipment buying contengent doesn't do this for vanity. I think this is the point of frustration: this small, very wealthy group is percieved as driving the prices out of reach in the name of vanity.
As Steven states more expensive doesn't mean better. Where it all goes wrong is the criteria in which it is judged. If we are after a gold plated receiver then what we get is receiver sound that has enough bling to blind us from how unsoulful it sounds. We are too polite. We go somewhere and they show us a $1M speaker or system and we say "Wow that is awesome!". Then we listen to some music and we think Uggg. That is not so awesome. I can't believe that he spent $1M on that. But, what do we say? "That sounds great. Thanks for letting me listen to your system." (I am guilty of this) The poor guy thinks he has great sound becasue that is what everyone tells him. And he thinks the person was impressed by his $1M system. Maybe we are struck by the visual beauty of the system but the music it makes is dreadful. I think deep down the guy knows it really doesn't sound that great but he has no reason to believe otherwise as he keeps getting told how great it sounds. This phenomena almost got me out of audio as I will explain.
Imagine what might happen if he was told by someone, "Hey, you should go check out Steven's system." Knowing that Steven only spent $50k and it sounds better than this guy's $1M system. Please allow me a simple story: A similar thing happened to me a little over 10 years ago. At the time I had Wilson Maxx2's with Spectral amps, preamp, CD etc. So that system was already well over $100K in 2007. I met an audiophile at work and he invited me over to his place. I went into his dedicated room. It looked like a disaster of a science lab. (audio sh*t everywhere) He had horns sitting on end tables with DIY woofers. The crossover parts were out on a board. It was driven by a modified CJ tube amp direct wired to the wall. The CD player was a Marantz from the 1980's that he had heavily modified. All of this sitting on foam on the floor. I don't know if he even had $10K in that system. But, I could not believe how good that system sounded with vocals and jazz. (It could not do Orchestral or heavy rock.) But wow, could it do vocals. I still remember that sound. It was at that point I started to take a serious look at audio. My assessment was that something was seriously wrong with the way I was being programmed to think about audio. I won't mention any names but you all know who the programmers were/are.
So what about Steven's 3 points? Do you need to spend over $50K to get top tier music reproduction? I think in today's market this is the unfortunate reality. However, spending $500k doesn't even guarantee mediocre music without proper setup and optimization. Is spending over $100K on a pair of speakers or other component all aout vanity and status? Not in all cases. For some, yes. And this is having the unfortunate side effect of driving prices higher. Does spending more get you more? Definitely not. But there are plenty of examples where the more expensive product is better both objectively and subjectively.
Of course this is all just my opinion. You are free to ignore and move on with your life.
Like most readers of this forum, I started my audio odyssey with modestly priced entry level components. I Thoroughly enjoyed the musical experience at this level while recognizing improvements in sq and musical experienice we’re possible with better (more expensive) equipment. But audio became a hobby to me and not just about enjoying the music (obviously I have to enjoy the music along with evaluating equipment changes or what’s the point). Over the years, each new purchase was evaluated compared to existing equipment. If there are improvements in sq or other intangibles like user interface or ease of use, I keep it. Otherwise I return or resell. I am now at the point where I am very happy with my system and really don’t think about what the next purchase will be. This came at a cost. While I have no single piece over $100k, my system as a whole is well over 100k. So I guess what I am trying to say is that while I’m sure one can find musical enjoyment at a much more modest cost, increase in cost for each of my components brought additional improvements and thus increasing enjoyment of the music to me. The other factor I don’t believe is mentioned in posts here is that one can have two pieces of equipment with different prices but sound similar. But, there is a cost associated with build quality, aesthetic or design. I for one will pay a premium for these features even if sq I’d the same.
I know a friend in Hong Kong whose family runs a real estate developer and is oligarch rich. He is also an excellent cellist himself, and clearly not musically illiterate. He has been a very reliable Wilson customer, always being one of the first if not the first to buy any flagship Wilson speakers. One time, when a group of us visited him, we were amazed to find him listening to a pair of Gallo Nucleus Reference speakers, placed in front of his massive Wilsons. He then confided that he only turns the Wilsons on when certain (oligarch grade) audiophile friends come to visit, otherwise, he listens to the Gallo speakers.
Some high end brands realised there are not enough well off Audiophiles around to make a profit so they decided to target the uber rich. A simple/sensible business decision. No reason for this to negatively impact genuine Audiophiles assuming they buy stuff based on sound quality.
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If you compare each new component to what you own at home, you will find more expensive components better. This is the linear approach. When Bill had Analog domain and focal grande utopia and asethetix IO, better SS amps, with Crystal Absolute Dream speaker cable and the most expensive Tara power cords etc would have been the solution to reach Nirvana.
To Sbnx's point, yes th L10 is better than L1. One guy in London did that shift, and his L10 was better than his Soulution 725 as well marginally. I did that compare. Yet, another system in London found the Soulution 720 to be better than 725, which I believe is what Shakti found as well. And this other guy's system set up with the Soulution 720 sandwiched between Allnic phono and pre is completely different to the all CH 10 system in the other place. I like both. The Allnic one is cheaper. Sure, in his system the L10 might be better than his Soulution 720. However, these compares are the linear approaches that will almost always take you to the more expensive product.
Yet, by far the best system was the one with Mayer 10y and Mayer 46. And that is what Bill shifted to after listening to it, because he couldn't have gone that far ahead, even close, with his linear approach. with one bang he got rid of all his old system, and slowly started building in a new direction. Overall cost for final point will be way lower, sonic nirvana for him multiple times higher.
This coming from the one person here on this thread that actually believes owning expensive gear buys you entry into some imagined club of high rollers and feels persecuted by this imagined group.
Oh and on the servicing of CH vs a SET amp. Anybody with a screwdriver can replace a faulty board. Who in his right mind would entrust a SET amp's repair to just any technician when a poor solder job can easily mess up a unit. You need to have a very good technician not just a technician. We haven't even started to discuss the routing of the point to point connected internal cabling to keep self noise at bay.
I guess that is what happens when you espouse something you have yet to live yourself and why I continue to say you are doing the SET guys , builders and owners alike, a disservice. EVERY little thing matters more the higher the sensitivity climbs. This is the price you pay for not having a zero crossing point. With no back emf you rely on mechanical damping primarily > driver design and driver loading design and execution. Then you have to make that speaker work at the distance and SBR your room will allow. You constantly gloss over their contributions to the final presentation. SET is simple and pure and that is what makes it challenging and ultimately rewarding in its unique way.
Hi Carlos,
Hopefully this will never come to happen but supposing you were forced by circumstance to keep only one of the systems, towards which one would you lean at this point in time? Obviously there is no wrong answer.
I ask because the WAAR project looks like you're having a lot of fun doing your "mastering" thing. There's a lot of things you can play with too with the Loth X maybe just a slightly different tool box maybe?
In any case we do agree that fun and enjoyment is what counts. Just curious which kind of play you might enjoy more.
Is this also true of Soulution, Audionet, Krell, Dagostino, etc?
For example Soulution and Audionet breakdown and inability to service easily is known among their users. I know one who took 2 years to get his 720 fixed.
I don't know. I only mentioned this because you mentioned CH specifically.
With other brands we carry, it depends on the repair needed. If the problem can be identified by our techs then we are just sent parts. When we can't figure it out the unit gets sent back to the factory. Some components are more sensitive than others like those that use "naked" carbon resistors the internal handling and working around of which require higher expertise, these always go back to the factory. We have to be very aware of our limitations and make that very clear to our customers. Warranties and repairs are always discussed in depth prior to closing the sale. Ultimately the client can always choose to go with a third party tech but it is at their own risk.
Ok, miscommunication on my part.I was making points on SS amps there including CH, on cost, sonic quality, as well as service, so that got mixed up.
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