Oligarch audio? bite the hand that feeds you me thinks!

[bonzo75]

But I also get sad when people oversimplify what it takes to design something special and then make it commercially viable.

Since I love analog, cart manufacture is a great example. It's so easy to say ' a few ounces of stone, wood and metal how much can this be worth '. And I understand that outlook. Now how many of the high earners that can even talk about this gear want to sit down, mill out the parts, make 50 or 100 to get them sounding good, make them one at a time thereafter, and service them when the buyer jams his finger into the cantilever, and sell them for $500? Anyone?

Sorry. No one said the cart has to be cheap. Yet, it does not have to be of the current 15k crop, plus you really cannot say the current 15k carts are better than the ones will lower price.

I also said that if you find a good bespoke made item, pay that guy what he will charge to part with it. Such high quality will never be commercially viable. Your commercial stuff will be of lower quality than this bespoke, but higher priced than the bespoke.

Of course cars were mentioned. Sure why buy an ex Ferrari factory racer for 7 figures when you can buy a Radical ( or similar ) for way less. Yet money still matters when boundaries are pushed.

Are you buying the Ferrari for the same functional objective as the \Radical?

Not to mention manufacturer longevity.

These people should then head for the likes of Wilson and others, including Avant garde. There are many current commercial brands in audio that have pretty negative reports on service on these forums, so this car logic of manufacture longevity does not necessarily apply. Currently there are two Gryphon Kodos will blown woofers reported on this forum.

The 160k speaker was reported as the best heard with almost no user reports. So unlike with cars it is a completely different buying behavior.

 

[bonzo75]

I have never found a Ferrari owner to say he bought it purely to drive his kids to school. That is not what the price is for.

So if you guys pay up for status, please don't come here and tell us you didn't and did it for purely for sonics. You can buy what you want with your money but not make random claims with it.

 

[andromedaaudio]

So if you guys pay up for status,

I m willing to pay for quality

but not make random claims with it.

Lol , who are you to think you can decide what somebody should or should not post .
Just buy a Devore or an ALTEC and be happy you have such a bargain / spend so less , and all others are dumb

 

[RCottin]

the point of posting this ridiculous article was
Steve Stone is a senior writer at TAS. TAS is the same publication that argued for long term equipment loans as a win win. TAS has two senior reviewers that both have well over 1 million dollars of expensive loaned gear in their "reference systems"
This article seems to be way off base for TAS and perhaps it is time for all the audio press to actually look in the mirror as to their future and thei importance or lack of it going forward. IMO making light of your readers, reviewers, clients, dealers and equipment suppliers is probably not good business.
I for one have to question any participation going forward with spending money in a place that believes all expensive gear is only for show and has no sonic value.

I did not realized that he is a TAS writer. I assumed he was an envious blogger at best. Now it should be an interesting coffee break chat with his colleagues and their systems (Harley, Fremer et all), and with the manufacturers of the really expensive gear they review and cherish in every issue of the magazine

 

[MarkusBarkus]

I did not realized that he is a TAS writer. I assumed he was an envious blogger at best.

...same here. So, not only is he a "nobody" to most of the world, he's a "nobody" to (at least some) people who actually read audio content.

 

[Carlos269]

I’m getting tired of repeating myself……when are we going to hear one of these glorious systems wow! us all?????????

I was up in my main listening room listening until 4 am this morning if someone out there has a systems that humbles me, I want to hear it. Put your hands up. I’m sick of vague talk and hypotheticals. Let’s hear these great systems? That are light years away, to justify their costs.

Come on!!!!!!!

 

[andromedaaudio]

I’m getting tired of repeating myself……when are we going to hear one of these glorious systems wow! us all?????????

I was up in my main listening room listening until 4 am this morning if someone out there has a systems that humbles me, I want to hear it. Put your hands up. I’m sick of vague talk and hypotheticals. Let’s hear these great systems? That are light years away, to justify their costs.

Come on!!!!!!!

Why would somebody need to prove anything .
Since when is listening to music a competition.

 

[Carlos269]

Why would somebody need to prove anything .
Since when is listening to music a competition.

Since we are discussing the validity of these products. What level of education did you complete?

 

[andromedaaudio]

Since we are discussing the validly of these products. What level of education did you complete?

Lol, Carlos you re always very competitive.
You dont need to be when you re listening to music .
When you finally win the soundcontest does it improve your enjoyment / listening expirience

Ps .Another more interesting thing since have worked apparently at Lockheed Martin whats True about retrieved alien craft?

 

[Carlos269]

Lol, Carlos you re always very competitive.
You dont need to be when you re listening to music .
When you finally win the soundcontest does it improve your enjoyment / listening expirience

Ps .Another more interesting thing since have worked apparently at Lockheed Martin whats True about retrieved alien craft?

Yes, I am an extremely competitive person and thrive in adversity. But more than anything I refuse blind acceptance. God shows himself in my life often so no religious connotations implied.

I have no direct or indirect connections to any alien spacecrafts or alien life investigations, sorry no insight on that.

 

[Lee]

I would disagree. There is status in finding a cool 160k loudspeaker others haven't heard and in being recognised as having gone all out for a speaker vs buying a 20k or 40k one.

Btw, 160k does sound completely ridiculous to me. My main observation in audio is that after a point you just don't get any upside on sonics, often downside as things get more complicated. This point might be different from TTs, carts, dacs, speakers, etc, and for overall system, but this pushing of price to signal quality is just ridiculous in audio. It is just an NLF because it does happen to a certain point, so we extrapolate the line further. As I said, I find the upside in HT, and if I had the money, would pay up more for records and have back up copies too, hunt down master tapes, (yes, I know you did some of this and I respect that), but there is just no further value in audio gear. Those with more money should then set up different rooms for different system/music approaches instead of just spending more on one hoping to get additional delta. The sonic upswing in a system will come more because of changing some weak link instead of spending more on the same thing, and that experimentation might require budget rather than exhausting it on one component.

Or find a good bespoke one off speaker, and give the guy how much he wants for it. That could cost a lot, but not have a retail tag

With food I do find some very expensive restaurants to have high value.

I doubt you would find many people with long-term experience listening to $150K+ loudspeakers in agreement with this. Technology has progressed and you often do get what you pay for.

 

[Carlos269]

I doubt you would find many people with long-term experience listening to $150K+ loudspeakers in agreement with this. Technology has progressed and you often do get what you pay for.

Lee, give us a glimpse of your great system’s sound. Post a video and let us all hear what you are talking about.

 

[bonzo75]

I doubt you would find many people with long-term experience listening to $150K+ loudspeakers in agreement with this. Technology has progressed and you often do get what you pay for.

I have zero interest in what those suffering from NLF would say

 

[Solypsa]

Sorry. No one said the cart has to be cheap. Yet, it does not have to be of the current 15k crop, plus you really cannot say the current 15k carts are better than the ones will lower price.

More or less agree on the $15k++ point

Such high quality will never be commercially viable. Your commercial stuff will be of lower quality than this bespoke, but higher priced than the bespoke.

Probably. Hopefully. Sometimes. Wonderful when true.

Are you buying the Ferrari for the same functional objective as the \Radical?

Just an example, in which I would buy the Radical, since my intended implication was actual racing not Pebble Beach show offs. Actually I would be happy with renting track time and GT350R. Sorry this car talk is a distraction, my bad.

Anyway

I don't personally favor luxury priced audio. I also can't afford it, but wouldn't recommend it to friends that can.

I do feel that some bespoke options are the most bang for the buck. Of these an even smaller group are probably best at any price.

I do not think the lines I represent are low in value if that was the implication.

 

[Carlos269]

I do feel that some bespoke options are the most bang for the buck. Of these an even smaller group are probably best at any price.

Agree 100%! In addition to my custom bespoke built DHT preamplifiers, SET amplifiers, and Horn speakers, I have been building and getting my digital dacs, servers, and NAA’s custom built as well. All cutting edge designs at honest & real world costs.

 

[bonzo75]

I don't personally favor luxury priced audio. I also can't afford it, but wouldn't recommend it to friends that can.

I do feel that some bespoke options are the most bang for the buck. Of these an even smaller group are probably best at any price.

We are then completely aligned on each of the above lines. Hence Alined

 

[Ron Resnick]

I agree that cartridge pricing is the second most inexplicable component -- only behind cables pricing.

 

[bonzo75]

More or less agree on the $15k++ point

Probably. Hopefully. Sometimes. Wonderful when true.

Just an example, in which I would buy the Radical, since my intended implication was actual racing not Pebble Beach show offs. Actually I would be happy with renting track time and GT350R. Sorry this car talk is a distraction, my bad.

Anyway

I don't personally favor luxury priced audio. I also can't afford it, but wouldn't recommend it to friends that can.

I do feel that some bespoke options are the most bang for the buck. Of these an even smaller group are probably best at any price.

I do not think the lines I represent are low in value if that was the implication.

btw, when I said “your commercial stuff” I meant generically all the commercial stuff, not your portfolio. I see how that can be misunderstood

 

[Lagonda]

$100,000 was the author’s threshold and that is why that amount was carried over for the discussion.

My Wisdom Audio Adrenaline Rush speakers were $180,000 as configured. They are the most capable speakers that I have ever heard, but even so I have augmented them at both extremes with the Wilson Audio WAMM Series VII subwoofer towers and the Acapella Audio ION TW-1S plasma super-tweeters, not currently in use with this system. All together this speaker system retailed for around $280K.

My Loth-X Polaris augmented by my TBI Emperor subwoofers and Acapella Audio ION TW-1S plasma super-tweeters speaker system retailed for around $40k.

At one seventh the cost, I venture to say that 8 out of 10 would take the Loth-X speaker system based on sound.

That’s the take away here.

Sure the big system is definitely more grand and majestic. To use boxing terminology, sure the heavyweight fights and heavyweight champion got all the glamour and fanfare but true boxing aficionados are more interested in who is the “pound for pound” best boxer.

It isn’t about a “best value” or cost/value proposition as many here mistakenly interpret it, but rather about what is best “regardless of costs”. If these astronomically priced “Uber” components are worth their cost and are clearly superior then let’s hear them. Who is going to step up and demonstrate the superiority of these “oligarch” level components?

In case that you are wondering, so how do I get my WAAR system to compete with my Loth-X system……….This is what motivated me to implement the Remastering process on the WAAR system.

By the way, I don’t think Steven Stone is envious of not being able to own the “oligarch” level components, I think that he knows better, in that they are not required for musical enjoyment.

There is a Wisdom Ultimate system for sale on Audiogon for $ 159 000 retail $600 000 80% of. Im sure few people pay full retail, i never have on any of the big ticket items, you and Ron included Carlos, and i doubt Mike looses money when he sells any of his equipment. The big sticker price is always just a exaggerated negotiation starting point !

 

[stirlingtrayle]

So now we have a unhappy "reviewer" throwing everyone under the bus, telling bull shit stories about the man that hired him, and whining about what he and others were involved in creating. I know he isn't very important , which may be a huge understatement, but folks the review process has steered its course into a major storm and now adding this with some of the other editorials about long term loans, heavily discounted special accommodations, prepaid trips, gifts, expensive dinners this article seems to be about the pot calling the kettle black.
Lets now piss on the clients that buy high end audio, the dealers who purchase and sell it and the other portion of the magazine /review industry that praise it.
So what's it going to be boy? to quote the song.
Me, well I am not surprised that the Industry is starting to turn on itself. Maybe a good look in the mirror is required to make some real change.

Elliot, some of the folks I work with are in the uber-wealthy (truly uber) category, and I'll say that they either don't read or don't pay a lot of attention to forums such as WBF. It's not a criticism to this forum, but they just don't care what's said on sites like this. As for reviews and commentary in the press, such as that by Steven, they probably see that for the opinion piece it is and move on, if they take the time to read it at all. My experience is that there isn't a lot of hand-wringing going on with these folks and they are far more interested in what THEY are experiencing rather than what somebody else does.