On Cables

[microstrip]

(...) I don’t know Ron nor do I care! Not talking about Cardas, the Typical answer will be impedance curve from the guys who buy off the shelf stuff and dress it in pantyhose. They’ll braid, twist or come up with some other shit, call it magic and sell it to you. If you really want to throw money at 15m wires ask Transparent or MIT to build them and compensate for whatever it is with their networks.

david

My Transparent Audio Opus MM2 IC's were 30 feet long. One nice thing about TA long cables is that the cost per meter after the standard length is not exorbitant.

 

[Solypsa]

It has long been said that 'if it is good enough for the studio it is good enough for at home', I think this comparison relationship does have some flaws, but the better pro cables get the job done correctly. Your favorite records do/ have use(ed) them. To me this is common sense.

 

[microstrip]

It has long been said that 'if it is good enough for the studio it is good enough for at home', I think this comparison relationship does have some flaws, but the better pro cables get the job done correctly. Your favorite records do/ have use(ed) them. To me this is common sense.

Yes, it is possible to apply this common sense to any component in our system - this principle is very popular in some audio forums.

Can we have the list of your favorite better pro cables, specifying brand and model? I have tried three types of Mogami IC's and they sounded very different.

 

[ddk]

Never tried 15m but the Cardas Golden Reference IC is one of the lowest capacitance cables I have seen, I measured around 200 pF for my 7.5 m run that operates wonders even with with high impedance tube electronics. This gives around 30 pf per meter. Surely a few audiophile cables can have more than 800 pF per meter - I have measured such high values - and can sound miserable in long runs.

Please note I have no experience with Cardas Beyhond ICs and have not measured them. Also Ron VTL preamplfier has FET SS low impedance bufffers.

I didn’t measure them just going by experience. Access to wires in Asia isn’t difficult to run these tests, even if you have to buy some. Just cut it up and reterminate.

david

 

[Solypsa]

Can we have the list of your favorite better pro cables, specifying brand and model?

No you may not. It is a well worn road as you are aware.

 

[Tango]

This is from real world living. I have 30 feet cables of very expensive brand with network box and also brand with super good material of wire and sleeve. But now i am using really cheap studio cables. They sure sound different. Does my sound turn into shit now using studio cables? None of people who listened to my system said it sucked. I even left expensive cables hanging pretending I am using them. What do I do with those long expensive custom length cables? They are in the box somewhere in my storage. I CANNOT SELL THEM. NO BODY BUYS THEM. TOO LONG. TOO EXPENSIVE FOR THEM. You buy special long cable you are stuck with them. BAD INVESTMENT. PERIOD.

 

[Ron Resnick]

It has long been said that 'if it is good enough for the studio it is good enough for at home', I think this comparison relationship does have some flaws, but the better pro cables get the job done correctly. Your favorite records do/ have use(ed) them. To me this is common sense.

This sounds wise, maybe, at first blush. Logically, this proves too much.

If this were true, applied across our audio systems, we wouldn’t have a hobby.

I am in favor of using inexpensive cables when they sound better, or adulterate the sound less (depending on your philosophy), than expensive cables.

 

[Mcsnare]

Yes, it is possible to apply this common sense to any component in our system - this principle is very popular in some audio forums.

Can we have the list of your favorite better pro cables, specifying brand and model? I have tried three types of Mogami IC's and they sounded very different.

I use mostly Mogami 2549 in my mastering studio. Most runs are short, but a few are 35-30 feet. My audiophile side is constantly battling with my practical/studio side and making me think about replacing some of the cables with the pricy stuff, but to do the whole thing in something like Cardas or Siltech would be hideously expensive. I have done many "controlled" cable shootouts by recording a mix through various cables, then having access to instant and level-matched A/B comparisons. What I've found is that, yes, some high-end cables do indeed contribute special sonic aspects to the presentation, but the difference is extremely subtle. Mogami 2549 holds its own very well against the better audiophile cables and it sounds better to me than more than a few high-dollar cables I've tested. Using 2549 and high-quality XLR connectors with an expert solder job yields very good results. I would stay away from a star-quad geometry cable since the capacitance is quite a bit higher, so the high freq roll-off on a 50ft cable will probably be noticeable.

 

[Cellcbern]

It has long been said that 'if it is good enough for the studio it is good enough for at home', I think this comparison relationship does have some flaws, but the better pro cables get the job done correctly. Your favorite records do/ have use(ed) them. To me this is common sense.

Disagree. The amount that audiophiles have been willing to spend on cables particularly over the last two decades has driven innovation and performance gains. As a result high end home audio cables are typically better quality/ better performing than their pro audio counterparts. The same is true with respect to medical/hospital grade cables and power conditioning. I would not have pro audio cables in my system.

 

[PeterA]

Disagree. The amount that audiophiles have been willing to spend on cables particularly over the last two decades has driven innovation and performance gains. As a result high end home audio cables are typically better quality/ better performing than their pro audio counterparts. The same is true with respect to medical/hospital grade cables and power conditioning.

I was recently in the hospital for an accident and noticed that my room had Ching Cheng power cords with clear connectors hooked up to some of the gear. I am not joking. The top one looks just like the ones I use in my system.

I took this photograph just to confirm. Sure enough, the connector was exactly the same but I didn’t take note of the model number.

 

[Cellcbern]

I was recently in the hospital for an accident and noticed that my room had Ching Cheng power cords with clear connectors hooked up to some of the gear. I am not joking. The top one looks just like the ones I use in my system.

View attachment 98182

Hospitals and pro studios will typically not budget for/spend what audiophiles will for high quality cables. Many of us are aware of the story (link below) of the surgeon who brought his Shuyata home audio audio cables and power conditioners to the operating room, and how the reductions in noise he realized led Shunyata to develop a medical products division. What is interesting about this is that the Shunyata gear the surgeon used and that Shunyata now sells to hospitals is from the middle of their product range - not their premium products.

Shunyata Research Medical Uses - The Audio Beat - www.TheAudioBeat.com

read audio reviews, ratings, and user opinions on audio equipment before you buy an audio system

www.theaudiobeat.com

 

[Cellcbern]

Disagree. The amount that audiophiles have been willing to spend on cables particularly over the last two decades has driven innovation and performance gains. As a result high end home audio cables are typically better quality/ better performing than their pro audio counterparts. The same is true with respect to medical/hospital grade cables and power conditioning.

FYI:

The Art of Recording - The Absolute Sound

The Art of Recording - Celebrated recording engineer Jonathan Horwich offers insights into the recording process.

www.theabsolutesound.com

Excerpts:

"....But whether analog or digital, if the engineer chooses the path of tonally and spatially natural sound, it will dictate the following in recording.....4) Near-audiophile-quality recording equipment, including microphones, wire, AC grounding and conditioning.....".

"....Further, and key to a natural recording (whether analog or digital) is minimal yet superb equipment, including microphones. This is no different than what most diligent audiophiles go through in putting together a superb playback system. Unfortunately, most engineers do not have the time, make the effort, or have the financial resources to match the quality of many audiophile systems. But a few engineers do use the finest equipment and the results speak for themselves....".

 

[DaveC]

Ron, one of these years you may actually setup a system and find out for yourself. Until then this discussion just repeats it's self ad infinitum, because you're not willing to do the work to understand the subject you continually decry as some sort of horrific "morass" or whatever. It's not a "morass", you just haven't spent the time and effort to actually test cables and understand why for yourself!

I don't understand how cables are so different than anything else? The same objections you have are equally valid when talking about amplifiers, sources, etc. Do the measurements relate exactly to what one hears? Can you really look at the specs and parts in an amp and have a clue about how it sounds? If so, WHY? Can you look at a speaker, read it's measurement data, driver spec, and know how it's going to sound? If so, WHY?

Well, you can have some idea based on past experience with those products, right? After some time you CAN relate specifications of amps and speakers to how they sound, and IT'S NO DIFFERENT WITH CABLES, but you seem to be completely unwilling to actually do the work required to have some understanding of why cables sound different. It's so odd because you seem genuinely interested in the subject, it's brought up in this way over and over and over again.

In any case you are misguided about the "morass" of cables, about how "There is no intellectually honest or theoretically valid way to figure out, in advance, which, if any, expensive cable will sound better to one’s own ears than a Mogami or a Belden cable." There is, and to about the same degree as any other audio component. It's just that you've said yourself you are UNWILLING to put the work in and actually test cables. Until and unless you are willing to get off your butt and put the effort in I suppose you'll never understand, but I am sure you will continue to complain about it and continue to make these dubious claims and lamentations on the subject.

The truth is cables make or break a system and with the fact that today's speakers, amps and sources are so good and so neutral and resolving compared to what they were 20 years ago, cables are now more important than ever. Disregard them at your own peril, every part of an audio system matters and it's in everyone's best interests to actually educate yourself on the subject, especially if you're going to be spending big-$ on a nice system. An educated consumer will be able to setup a superior system with compromises that match their own personal preferences to a far greater degree than the gear swappers that continually churn through the latest and greatest with no clue about what they are buying.

 

[Audire]

Hospitals and pro studios will typically not budget for/spend what audiophiles will for high quality cables. Many of us are aware of the story (link below) of the surgeon who brought his Shuyata home audio audio cables and power conditioners to the operating room, and how the reductions in noise he realized led Shunyata to develop a medical products division. What is interesting about this is that the Shunyata gear the surgeon used and that Shunyata now sells to hospitals is from the middle of their product range - not their premium products.

Shunyata Research Medical Uses - The Audio Beat - www.TheAudioBeat.com

read audio reviews, ratings, and user opinions on audio equipment before you buy an audio system

www.theaudiobeat.com

The article is intriguing. I had heard about this, but didn’t know it was in print. Impressive.

Noise can be a matter of life and death, both in the surgical room and in audio!

 

[PeterA]

The truth is cables make or break a system and with the fact that today's speakers, amps and sources are so good and so neutral and resolving compared to what they were 20 years ago, cables are now more important than ever. Disregard them at your own peril, every part of an audio system matters and it's in everyone's best interests to actually educate yourself on the subject, especially if you're going to be spending big-$ on a nice system. An educated consumer will be able to setup a superior system with compromises that match their own personal preferences to a far greater degree than the gear swappers that continually churn through the latest and greatest with no clue about what they are buying.

Dave, this is a very interesting comment to me. If the gear is so good today, so neutral and so resolving, why do the superior systems still have compromises which need to be considered and then matched to an owners preferences? Wouldn’t superior systems have fewer and fewer compromises and trade-offs as time goes on? Can you describe the compromises in the superior systems that already have neutral and highly resolving equipment?

Are you suggesting that cables should be used to match the listener’s preferences because the gear itself is already so neutral and resolving?

I think Ron explained earlier that when his system is set up and settled in, he will begin to listen to various cables at different price points to move the sound forward. He even listed the cables that he is considering right now.

 

[DaveC]

Dave, this is a very interesting comment to me. If the gear is so good today, so neutral and so resolving, why do the superior systems still have compromises which need to be considered and then matched to an owners preferences? Wouldn’t superior systems have fewer and fewer compromises and trade-offs as time goes on? Can you describe the compromises in the superior systems that already have neutral and highly resolving equipment?

Are you suggesting that cables should be used to match the listener’s preferences because the gear itself is already so neutral and resolving?

I think Ron explained earlier that when his system is set up and settled in, he will begin to listen to various cables at different price points to move the sound forward. He even listed the cables that he is considering right now.

Everything is a compromise Peter. Speaker design is an exercise in balancing compromises according to the designer's priorities.

One example with your own speakers is the fact they are corner horns, designed to fit in, surprise, corners! A bit of a compromise, no? I mean, if you don't have the right room for them they simply don't work as intended.

If there was a speaker with no compromises everyone would own it and there wouldn't be a million different types of speakers. But there are, and same with amps and everything else.

"No Compromise" design is a lie and just marketing-speak.

 

[Cellcbern]

Dave, this is a very interesting comment to me. If the gear is so good today, so neutral and so resolving, why do the superior systems still have compromises which need to be considered and then matched to an owners preferences? Wouldn’t superior systems have fewer and fewer compromises and trade-offs as time goes on? Can you describe the compromises in the superior systems that already have neutral and highly resolving equipment?

Are you suggesting that cables should be used to match the listener’s preferences because the gear itself is already so neutral and resolving?

I think Ron explained earlier that when his system is set up and settled in, he will begin to listen to various cables at different price points to move the sound forward. He even listed the cables that he is considering right now.

Again, I am puzzled that you speak about components being "so good today" and "neutral and resolving" as if it was possible to determine this without listening to them via multiple cables. The music producing parts of an audio system are source, amplification, speakers, and cables. Subtract any one of these four and there is no music. Since you cannot listen to any component except through cables, and you cannot listen to one cable except through others, the question you ask above is meaningless to me, and I am baffled that you and others persist with discussions along these lines.

 

[PeterA]

Again, I am puzzled that you speak about components being "so good today" and "neutral and resolving" as if it was possible to determine this without listening to them via multiple cables. The music producing parts of an audio system are source, amplification, speakers, and cables. Subtract any one of these four and there is no music. Since you cannot listen to any component except through cables, and you cannot listen to one cable except through others, the question you ask above is meaningless to me, and I am baffled that you and others persist with discussions along these lines.

I never said anything about components being so good today. I was asking Dave the questions for clarification. Dave was the one who claimed that modern gear today is so neutral and highly resolving yet compromised. I was simply trying to understand what he meant. I think of compromise in sonic terms. IE, if it is so neutral and resolving in sonic terms, why is it still so compromised. Not so much in size or cost or positioning but I can see those as being factors for some. I have no idea what “no compromise design“ even means.

I’m a firm believer that cables make a difference. They can make a huge difference. Because of that, listeners should listen and make their choices based on budget and sound quality and the gear that the cables happen to be hooked up to. Yes, it all matters.

Dave is talking about neutral components of today. I understand he sells cables of different materials and configurations for different flavors and tastes. I am asking him, not making any claims myself, if he designs his cables to give the rest of the neutral and resolving components making up today's systems that depends highly on the wires connecting them all and to the power grid, if that is where the listener gets to make choices to match his preference.

 

[PeterA]

Everything is a compromise Peter. Speaker design is an exercise in balancing compromises according to the designer's priorities.

One example with your own speakers is the fact they are corner horns, designed to fit in, surprise, corners! A bit of a compromise, no? I mean, if you don't have the right room for them they simply don't work as intended.

If there was a speaker with no compromises everyone would own it and there wouldn't be a million different types of speakers. But there are, and same with amps and everything else.

"No Compromise" design is a lie and just marketing-speak.

Dave, I think we have different ideas about what compromise means. You are speaking about inherent properties, like cabinet design. Power requirements are similar. Cost and size are other factors. I think of these things as givens with certain designs. One chooses the gear based on his requirements. If one wants corner horns, he gets them. If he does not have corners in which to place them, is that a compromise of the speaker? Is a speaker requiring 150 watts a compromise? Is a large multi driver design a compromise if one has a small room?

I had thought your were describing modern gear of today which you claim is neutral and resolving. You do not mention inherent design properties. I am still curious about the compromises that say a very neutral and resolving sounding amplifier or DAC or wire would have today. If we are indeed making progress in terms of sound quality, and things are indeed improving, I would have suspected that the trade offs and compromises would be quite limited or minor. If the really superior phono cables are neutral and resolving, what compromises do they really have in terms of sound quality?

 

[DaveC]

Dave, I think we have different ideas about what compromise means. You are speaking about inherent properties, like cabinet design. Power requirements are similar. Cost and size are other factors. I think of these things as givens with certain designs. One chooses the gear based on his requirements. If one wants corner horns, he gets them. If he does not have corners in which to place them, is that a compromise of the speaker? Is a speaker requiring 150 watts a compromise? Is a large multi driver design a compromise if one has a small room?

I had thought your were describing modern gear of today which you claim is neutral and resolving. You do not mention inherent design properties. I am still curious about the compromises that say a very neutral and resolving sounding amplifier or DAC or wire would have today. If we are indeed making progress in terms of sound quality, and things are indeed improving, I would have suspected that the trade offs and compromises would be quite limited or minor. If the really superior phono cables are neutral and resolving, what compromises do they really have in terms of sound quality?

Yeah, it's always an issue when there's disagreement about what words mean. I find a lot of discussion here tiring because the arguments are semantic with people talking past one another rather than making an honest attempt to understand what the other person actually means. So the discussion is a mess of poor communication and semantic disagreements rather than anything useful propagated by willful ignorance and the refusal to see differing points of view.

I recently wrote a lot about cable neutrality and the tradeoffs or COMPROMISES between warmth and clarity, much of that based on your stated inability to understand what neutral means. Now the same with the term "compromise". So on phono cables and cables in general there is always a compromise between warmth and clarity. As an engineer, as someone who has designed quite a bit of audio, automotive, manufacturing and other kinds of gear, I see all design as managing compromise.

As I said, if there was a truly uncompromised speaker or piece of audio gear everyone would own it and be happy but the fact that there's tons of different speaker and amplifier types that are popular points to the fact that uncompromised gear is a fantasy sold by marketing departments.