On Cables

PeterA

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Most people want to hear what's on the recording rather than bounce sound all over the room and vibrate their components using steel racks for a million dollars.

Dave, I have seen the steel racks and heard the results. They are actually quite serious designs and I assure you they do not vibrate the components sitting on them. They also do not cost a million dollars. I just want to clarify for the sake of accuracy. The many visitors to Utah will also confirm that the sound does not bounce all over the room. That is quite evident from the videos. There are some really good sounding ones on Tang's AS2000 thread.

Are there any videos of systems with your cables in them, either of your system or of clients using your cables?
 
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DaveC

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Dave, I have seen the steel racks and heard the results. They are actually quite serious designs and I assure you they do not vibrate the components sitting on them. They also do not cost a million dollars. I just want to clarify for the sake of accuracy. The many visitors to Utah will also confirm that the sound does not bounce all over the room. That is quite evident from the videos. There are some really good sounding ones on Tang's AS2000 thread.

Are there any videos of systems with your cables in them, either of your system or of clients using your cables?

Peter, writing on this forum may be your full time job but I'm currently making cables at 10:08 pm and don't have the kind of spare time you seem to, and I have little interest in engaging with the "Natural Sound(TM)" cult. Have a good night.
 

ddk

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Over the years I've learned you are never interested in a genuine conversation, all you care about is yourself and promoting your "Natural Sound (TM)" system and related merchandise.

You seriously think your tired old tropes are going to lure me into wasting my time responding to crap like " if this is untrue then you claim you have magic spells?" That's condescending, derogatory, offensive and absolutely unworthy of my time responding to it. It's unfortunate I feel I need to correct your outright lies, I do so out of concern for your agenda of obfuscation on the subject of cables, room treatments, etc. The fact is people DO often need to learn more about cables and your lies and misguidance are harmful to other people in actually achieving their objectives. Most people want to hear what's on the recording rather than bounce sound all over the room and vibrate their components using steel racks for a million dollars.
Back to the personal BS and ankle biting Dave? What else when you have nothing relevant to the topic. This was a conversation about interconnects which you turned into your personal grievance against me. I get it, you must be really threatened by what I say an educated consumer can be your worst nightmare. Try to bite my heels or sit on your hind legs and whimper as much you want, you got nothing real to counter with. If anything you’re the one taking thread sideways and wasting everyone’s time with your petty personal vendetta.

david
 
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adrianywu

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My system is completely balanced, and I use a 3-way active crossover. Therefore, a lot of cables are needed. I used Gotham GAC-3 for a long time, after finding out FM Acoustics also rebranded this cable to use with their systems. After talking to the late Allen Wright and reading his book on cables, I decided to try a simple construction, braiding three teflon coated 32G pure silver solid wires together. I don't use any shield, and the capacitance is around 70pF per meter. The sound is way better than the Gotham. The tone is neutral, very transparent and extended in FR. I used 3mm pure silver foil that Allen provided, together with Teflon tape (from Mouser) to make speaker cables for the tweeter and midrange. The whole system (tape machine, tape head preamp, tonearm, phono preamp, crossover and three sets of amps, and the two speaker drivers) is wired with pure silver except for the cables for the woofers, and the cost was around US$250 (that was 15 years ago). I have made the same ICs for several friends, and they all preferred mine to their original cables. The cost is low and so it is worth experimenting. You might be pleasantly surprised !
 

DaveC

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Back to the personal BS and ankle biting Dave? What else when you have nothing relevant to the topic. This was a conversation about interconnects which you turned into your personal grievance against me. I get it, you must be really threatened by what I say an educated consumer can be your worst nightmare. Try to bite my heels or sit on your hind legs and whimper as much you want, I you got nothing real to counter with.

david

I just can't help but read this in the voice of an angry toddler. :D
 

DaveC

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My system is completely balanced, and I use a 3-way active crossover. Therefore, a lot of cables are needed. I used Gotham GAC-3 for a long time, after finding out FM Acoustics also rebranded this cable to use with their systems. After talking to the late Allen Wright and reading his book on cables, I decided to try a simple construction, braiding three teflon coated 32G pure silver solid wires together. I don't use any shield, and the capacitance is around 70pF per meter. The sound is way better than the Gotham. The tone is neutral, very transparent and extended in FR. I used 3mm pure silver foil that Allen provided, together with Teflon tape (from Mouser) to make speaker cables for the tweeter and midrange. The whole system (tape machine, tape head preamp, tonearm, phono preamp, crossover and three sets of amps, and the two speaker drivers) is wired with pure silver except for the cables for the woofers, and the cost was around US$250 (that was 15 years ago). I have made the same ICs for several friends, and they all preferred mine to their original cables. The cost is low and so it is worth experimenting. You might be pleasantly surprised !

Good to hear! Try UPOCC silver if you haven't, pricey but worth it.
 

DaveC

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It’s the echo in your chamber.
david

This is going about as well for you as Putin's "special operation", isn't it?
 

tima

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Whatever ones stance and preference on cables fact remains that wire production is mostly an industrial process beyond the purview of audio private labels, of course aside from simple solid wires that one can even draw manually if needed. The same conductors are in the manufacturer's OEM brands, pro audio companies use them as well as audiophile brands.

This sounds like a fact to me. Based on the handful of wire reviews I've written and the several I've read, it is very rare to find a audiophile cable manufacturer who extrudes their own wire.
 

tima

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The amount that audiophiles have been willing to spend on cables particularly over the last two decades has driven innovation and performance gains. As a result high end home audio cables are typically better quality/ better performing than their pro audio counterparts. ... I would not have pro audio cables in my system.

Again, I am puzzled that you speak about components being "so good today" and "neutral and resolving" as if it was possible to determine this without listening to them via multiple cables.

I've tried a variety of non-audiophile (industrial) and audiophile cables and written about some of the latter. The audiophile cables I tried introduce certain audiophile effects, such as more bass, larger soundstage, 'enhanced' imaging, silenced frequencies, defined transients, blacker backgrounds, etc. Some do what they claim to do. I agree that audiophile cables are more proliferated and can be more different in materials than what they were twenty years ago. Whether one considers newer cables as 'better performing' depends on one's values. Whether one considers the effects they cause to be a good thing, depends on one's values.

The way I make cable and power cord choices for myself is by listening to them in my system.

Which pro-audio, audiophile and non-audiophile (industrial) cables have you heard in your system?
 
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wil

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From my experience, both Dave C (Zen Wave) and Mark Coles (Sablon) make excellent, no-nonsense cables. They explain the sonic properties of different constructions without relying on bs froufrou marketing speak and charge a reasonable price (relative to much audiophile cable pricing).
 

Cellcbern

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I've tried a variety of non-audiophile (industrial) and audiophile cables and written about some of the latter. The audiophile cables I tried introduce certain audiophile effects, such as more bass, larger soundstage, 'enhanced' imaging, silenced frequencies, defined transients, blacker backgrounds, etc. Some do what they claim to do. I agree that audiophile cables are more proliferated and can be more different in materials than what they were twenty years ago. Whether one considers newer cables as 'better performing' depends on one's values. Whether one considers the effects they cause to be a good thing, depends on one's values.

The way I make cable and power cord choices for myself is by listening to them in my system.

Which pro-audio, audiophile and non-audiophile (industrial) cables have you heard in your system?
The way I make cable and power cord choices is also by listening to them in my system. Over the years I've listened to Belden, Canare, and Mogami (that I am aware of) pro audio cables in my system, all of which sounded decent. I've also had friends and family members bring over cables fabricated from surplus studio, telecom/IT and military wire the manufacturers of which I didn't know or don't recall. I've tried multiple variations of the "Ching Cheng" power cables, all of which sounded etched, tonally "bleached", dynamically and spatially constricted, and unnatural (i.e., with a clear electronic signature). I've tried several different hospital grade power cords, which were only a little better than the Ching Cheng. I've owned/listened to many different audiophile power and signal cables in my system including ASI, Audio Magic, Audioquest, Cardas Clear, Cerious Technologies, Duelund, Echole, Hemingway Audio, HiDiamond, Lessloss, Soundstring, Townshend, Transparent, Van den Hul, and Verastarr. Up until about a decade ago I was on the "merry-go-round" with components and cables, changing/upgrading frequently. With cables my approach was to buy them used to try and resell them relatively quickly, holding onto longer only the few that really performed well. The last decade has brought relative stability to my audio life. My last move gave me the opportunity to have a dedicated listening room built, and to thoroughly address all of the distortion/noise related to power purity, mechanicl isolation, and room acoustics issues that can mask/overlay what components and cables are doing. My current system performs well enough compared to live music and the "state off the art" systems that I hear at shows, dealers, and audiophile friends' homes that I am off of the "merry-go-round" when it comes to components, although I may continue to experiment with cable upgrades. While I have had full looms of different cable brands/models the best system performance and synergy has resulted from matching cables to each component, particularly power cables which have made a bigger difference in my system than signal cables. At the end of the day, after 40+ years as an audiophile, no pro audio or other "high value" cables that I've heard have come close to the performance of the best high end audiophile cables I've used. When I turn on my current system I hear music appearing in space, untethered from the system, and with no apparent electronic signature. The sound is timbrally accurate, balanced, and natural sounding. None of the cables I’ve kept in the last five years have interacted sonically with my system to create audible anomalies. I've been building to this point for many years, but it was the Ehcole Omnia, Hemingway Audio Z-Core Beta, and Lessloss CMARC Entropic power cables that put my system “over the top”. All three feature innovative metallurgy, geometry and other advanced features that improve articulation and reduce noise, revealing more of the musical signal. Such advances/features are not found in pro audio and high value cables. My satisfaction with my system and these particular cables is of course related to my audio "values" as you point out. I believe that the "listening biases" that I posted in my profile represent my audio "values":

Listening Biases and Music Preferences:

The musical attributes of an audio system are more important to me than the sonic ones. While there is a minimum threshold for resolution, spatiality, and transparency to source that my system must meet, timbral accuracy and tonal color and density are more important to me than pinpoint imaging, soundstaging, or mining every detail in the media. If a system gets the gestalt of the music right I can live with less than state of the art resolution. I am not a stickler for "neutrality" which too often describes a cool to clinical sonic signature. I seek natural musicality and emotional engagement with the music, free from electronic artifacts, from the components and accessories that I purchase. For me this has always meant components/equipment whose sound is a little on the warm side of "neutral". I prefer vinyl over digital and require tubes in the chain in order to get the level of musicality I desire. While I was very late to add cd's to my collection I have been able to achieve natural, musical playback of sacd's and well recorded cd's with the Modwright modified players (and nothing else to date) featuring analogue tube output stages and tube rectified power supplies. I am particularly sensitive to a bright treble range and would prefer that it be slightly recessed rather than slightly shrill. I have yet to hear sliver conductor cables that didn't sound a little tipped up and thin, and detest the sound of Rhodium plated connectors which I have purged from my system.

I listen mostly to jazz and female vocals, blues, the R&B (e.g. Motown) that I grew up on, soundtracks, and a little classical. Luckily for me, since I have a small listening room since I prefer the intimacy of the jazz trio and string quartet to the complexity of the full orchestra and big band.
 
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DaveC

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Yes, that's exactly what I use. Pricey but still nothing compared to audiophile stuff !

It's the same material used by many high-end audiophile brands, a simple twisted pair or star quad of UPOCC silver wire used with good plugs like WBT silver RCAs will get you a very good cable to use as a reference when trying out other designs or other cables. UPOCC silver is the most neutral conductor available, but most will want a little more warmth.
 

PeterA

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Listening Biases and Music Preferences:

The musical attributes of an audio system are more important to me than the sonic ones. While there is a minimum threshold for resolution, spatiality, and transparency to source that my system must meet, timbral accuracy and tonal color and density are more important to me than pinpoint imaging, soundstaging, or mining every detail in the media. If a system gets the gestalt of the music right I can live with less than state of the art resolution. I am not a stickler for "neutrality" which too often describes a cool to clinical sonic signature. I seek natural musicality and emotional engagement with the music, free from electronic artifacts, from the components and accessories that I purchase. For me this has always meant components/equipment whose sound is a little on the warm side of "neutral". I prefer vinyl over digital and require tubes in the chain in order to get the level of musicality I desire. While I was very late to add cd's to my collection I have been able to achieve natural, musical playback of sacd's and well recorded cd's with the Modwright modified players (and nothing else to date) featuring analogue tube output stages and tube rectified power supplies. I am particularly sensitive to a bright treble range and would prefer that it be slightly recessed rather than slightly shrill. I have yet to hear sliver conductor cables that didn't sound a little tipped up and thin, and detest the sound of Rhodium plated connectors which I have purged from my system.

Nice.
 

microstrip

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This sounds like a fact to me. Based on the handful of wire reviews I've written and the several I've read, it is very rare to find a audiophile cable manufacturer who extrudes their own wire.

What is the point? Should we also also ask tube amplifiers to make their transformers?

Since you refer to your old wire reviews I must say they were much more enthusiastic and informative than your current skepticism and ambiguity on cables. Would you change anything in your very interesting 2018 review of the Shunyata Research Sigma Phono Cable? https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/shunyata-research-sigma-phono-cable/

My main point on cables is that they are like other components in a system and change the signal in a way no other component in the system can do - if we like what they do they are needed in a system. In the same category as electronic gear, speakers , tweaks, tube rolling, tonearms and cartridges.
 

tima

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This sounds like a fact to me. Based on the handful of wire reviews I've written and the several I've read, it is very rare to find a audiophile cable manufacturer who extrudes their own wire.

What is the point? Should we also also ask tube amplifiers to make their transformers?

Since you refer to your old wire reviews I must say they were much more enthusiastic and informative than your current skepticism and ambiguity on cables. Would you change anything in your very interesting 2018 review of the Shunyata Research Sigma Phono Cable? https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/shunyata-research-sigma-phono-cable/

The point, mr. microstrip, was to assert that David's statement ("Whatever ones stance and preference on cables fact remains that wire production is mostly an industrial process beyond the purview of audio private labels, of course aside from simple solid wires that one can even draw manually if needed. The same conductors are in the manufacturer's OEM brands, pro audio companies use them as well as audiophile brands.") was in line with what I know about audio cables, namely that very very few audio cable manufacturer's make their own wire.

I am neither sceptical nor ambiguous on cables. I acknowledge that all cables bring sonic characteristics to the output of the systems they are in. I acknowledge that they sometimes do introduce the effects their makers claim for them.
The audiophile cables I tried introduce certain audiophile effects, such as more bass, larger soundstage, 'enhanced' imaging, silenced frequencies, defined transients, blacker backgrounds, etc. Some do what they claim to do.

All of that is discernible from my posts in this thread, so please don't put words in my mouth.

I would not change a word in any of my reviews - I write about what I hear. They all stand as they are at the time they were published. I do however reserve the right to learn, evolve my thinking and change my values. Since I started reviewing in 2004 my writing ability changed, my vocabularly changed, and what I value in reproduced sound changed. Thank you for finding my Sigma phono cable review interesting.

My main point on cables is that they are like other components in a system and change the signal in a way no other component in the system can do - if we like what they do they are needed in a system. In the same category as electronic gear, speakers , tweaks, tube rolling, tonearms and cartridges.

Perhaps the point of your post was to make your main point which you could have done without reference to me.

Only one small disagreement with your statement. You say "if we like what they do they are needed in a system." I would say cables are required to allow our systems to operate, and yes other components are likewise required. I never denied components are required. I never denied wires are required.

In 2012 I wrote in my review of Lessloss interconnects and speaker cables:

Perhaps I’m old school for thinking that the job of an audio cable is to pass a signal from A to B without manipulating it or losing some part of it along the way. Nowadays there may be as many cable-related sonic differences as there are cables themselves. To me, it seems odd to select a preamp, amplifier, and speakers then go looking for cables to adjust or compensate for their sound. After all, no one does it the other way around.

I still believe pretty much the same today as then.


edit: grammar
 
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XV-1

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LOLOLOLOLOL

a really enjoyable read including Peter's assertion that Ron's system will be up and running in a couple of months :p

Ron, is that true? when is first record on the turntable day?
 

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