I'm not sure I understood this, Mike. Are you saying that you've tested sources direct to headphone amps, then through your Dart pre to the headphone amp and not heard a difference?
Tim
Opinions on the role of the preamp in a modern single source system
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I'm not sure I understood this, Mike. Are you saying that you've tested sources direct to headphone amps, then through your Dart pre to the headphone amp and not heard a difference?
Tim
How do you know it's impedance matched across the frequency spectrum? How do you know the volume control in the cdp or digital source is as good as one in a separate preamp?
I don't think you can speculate with such simple rhetoric. I've heard amps sound good without preamps and vice versa---I have found no absolute relationship to this theory.
KR
I'm not proposing any theory, just posing a theoretical question: If the source doesn't need gain or impedance adjustment, how can a preamp improve the signal going to the amplifier?
Tim
Your right there would not be much to talk about.
If I missunderstood your question I apoligize. Maybe I was putting words in your mouth that aren't there. I am just trying to understand where you are coming from.
I have already posted my thoughts on my experience with preamps earlier in this thread.
Sean
I don't think it improves the signal it just optimizes it. But this is just semantics.
Interesting. I'm unaware of having a personal definition of transparency. I'm fine with the standard definition; the quality or state of being transparent. I understand the term usually applies to visuals, not audio, but I didn't think there was a whole lot of controversy over the view that the the ideally transparent component would be the one that could be inserted in the signal chain with no noticable effect; it would be the component that would, in theory, "disappear." A component that alters or colors the signal would by definition be less transparent.
I accept the first part, and the second, but I'm confused by the third. Recordings are imperfect, and inconsistent. My original digital master of Van Morrison's "It's Too Late To Stop Now" is just a bit on the bright side, but it has a wonderful illusion of space and room ambience. The re-master has a bit more midrange and feels fuller overall, but is also more compressed and as a result not only loses some dynamic range, but some of that sense of venue as well. How would your preamp know which one I was listening to and what good capabilities to enhance?
According to a certain Japanese Audiophile mentioned earlier in this thread, you merely stopped too soon. You needed four more preamps.
I get your point, Micro. You like the sound better with the preamp. Enjoy.
Tim
No Tim, you are mixing different concepts in your definition. Optics and acoustics only mix in AV threads. When Gary said "but in all my testing, paradoxically, a good preamp always added transparency" he was not referring to photons or electrons but to the musical message - some people call it phonons
http://phonons.net/about/about-us.aspxAnd again you ignore the role of statistics and perceptual science in analyzing sound reproduction and high-end. As I have told you the question about "how can we know which corresponds to the intentions of the artist or the sound engineer if I have not been there" has been addressed in the F. Toole book - the Sound Reproduction. I have even inserted that text in a previous post in another thread debating accuracy. And I remember you already disagreed at that time ...
Thanks for the advice about the preampliifers. As a matter as a fact I currently have four at home, I only need more interconnects and a long time to try all the possible combinations.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, Micro. In all the years I've been involved in audio "transparency" has had, to my knowledge, a very specific meaning, derived very directly from the word's visual roots. The transparent component is the one you can hear right through; it adds no sound of its own, it has no color. Now, there are those who believe there is no such component and those who believe achieving audio transparency isn't even all that hard, but that's what it has always meant as far as I know. So by that definition, at least, you can't add transparency. Anything you would add would degrade transparency. YMMV.
Tim
Tim,
Although I have already suggested it in a previous post - the preamplifier does not improve the electrical signal - it improves the overall result of the sound reproduction in a particular system. And yes, it modifies the electrical signal. The Cartesian Cogito ergo sum for the preamplifier should be stated as mitigare logo sum or may be derogo logo sum
I switch to latin because it seems I can not add anything else to answer your question in my poor english
all my sources go thru my dart pre. i use the 'record out' on the dart pre as the source for my headphone amps. the 'record out' avoids the attenuator in the dart pre and is an 'always on' line level output. when i connected my digital player/ server dac directly into my headphone amp and then compared it to thru the dart pre there was no difference. the dart pre is a transparent component. i also compared the 'record out' to using the 'attenuated out' on the dart pre; and again there is no difference.
this is using a 1.5 meter of RCA interconnects. i think as interconnects get longer the dart pre would start to have advantages over most any source component since typically source components have 'less' stable outputs compared to the highest performing preamps.
i will add that my particular sources do have quite an advantage over the way other preamps connect to sources. my two phono stages are both internal inside the dart pre; and both my digital player and my custom tape output electronics (the King Cello) use the 50 ohm BNC 'zeel' interface. so these advantges likely help it to be transparent sounding.
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In the real world, how can the source have no need for impedance adjustment to the amplifier?
You are welcome to hear my room sometime- I have a BADA dac and McIntosh C2300 preamplifier. I have used a combination of both for the past 5-7 amps that have hit my room....
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
I should have said that a good preamp always improved transparency - not "added" transparency.
I agree that a transparent component is one you can hear right through. I have a number of recordings where I was present at the live event. Playing without the preamp always detracted from micro- and macro- dynamics, and detail. Like having the band play behind a veil. I haven't heard a band play behind a veil, but I have tried playing speakers behind a veil, so yes I have heard the difference.
And yes, it wasn't an instantaneous switch-over. The live event was several months ago, so knowing your opinion of auditory memory, I'll also admit that it doesn't meet your standards of double-blind testing.
However, despite our disagreements, I am trying to be objective, and with the event this evening, will give another 40+ audiophiles the chance to compare "live" vs reproduced music.
A bit late to the discussion, but I'll jump in. I have played my systems with and without preamps, digital sources (MCD500 and MCD1100 with analog volume controls) connected directly to the power amps and appreciated the sound of the systems more with the preamplifiers in the signal path. My initial impression when driving the power amps (MC601's or MC2301's) direct a with digital source was a sense of greater clarity in the upper midrange and a slight improvement in dynamics, but after listening for more than a day with this arrangement I found myself slightly fatigued with the sonic signatures of both systems. When the preamplifiers (C2300 or C1000C/P) we reintroduced, the music seem to have greater breath, with a more organic nature to instruments and voices. After a full day listening with the preamplifiers back in the systems there was no sense of listener fatigue, and a more pleasurable listener experience. This convinced me, at least to my ears, that the sound systems were more enjoyable to listen to with a preamplifier in the component mix than going source direct to the amplifiers. Of course, the preamplifier switching capabilities are also important to me since I have multiple sources in both systems.
It seems to me, with the exception of phono stage preamplifiers, that a line stage preamplifier is more voltage reduction component than a voltage gain one. Most source component line stage outputs, without attenuation, would drive most power amplifiers to near full rated output. A preamplifier is actually acting as an attenuator, and as such is required to reduce gain while at the same time maintaining unadulterated frequency response, phase shift and dynamic range of the input signal. It strikes me that the overall quality of a preamplifier's circuit designs, plus the individual parts necessary to achieve the end result of signal accuracy, plays a vital part in the overall performance of a complete sound system. The importance and complexity of preamplifier power supplies, superior channel separation, and signal isolation from digital interference makes an outboard preamplifier a more advanced and attractive approach to high performance audio than simply relying on a shrunken version of a preamp squeezed inside a digital source. Just my two cents worth.
It seems to me, with the exception of phono stage preamplifiers, that a line stage preamplifier is more voltage reduction component than a voltage gain one. Most source component line stage outputs, without attenuation, would drive most power amplifiers to near full rated output. A preamplifier is actually acting as an attenuator, and as such is required to reduce gain while at the same time maintaining unadulterated frequency response, phase shift and dynamic range of the input signal. It strikes me that the overall quality of a preamplifier's circuit designs, plus the individual parts necessary to achieve the end result of signal accuracy, plays a vital part in the overall performance of a complete sound system. The importance and complexity of preamplifier power supplies, superior channel separation, and signal isolation from digital interference makes an outboard preamplifier a more advanced and attractive approach to high performance audio than simply relying on a shrunken version of a preamp squeezed inside a digital source. Just my two cents worth.
What if the recording that sounds "a bit on the bright side" on your system really doesn't sound bright with better electronics driving the active speakers? The bottom line is that all electronics are going to have some intrinsic sound characteristics and for the most part, the more money you put down, the more layers you peel back on the electronic onion. Better quality preamps are more transparent than their lesser quality brethren. They are fundamentally more transparent to the signal source that is feeding them. Instead of thinking in terms of what preamps are adding, I think the logic is flipped and you have to think what the better preamps are not adding to the signal. Ideally, all they add is gain and the control functionality that most people need except for those who happily live with a single source for their musical enjoyment.
Unfortunately Gary, I don't think many people have really experienced what "true" transparency is and how fleeting it is on a system. Or even maybe that we're using the same term. For me, the acid test of transparency is the ability to see in the "minds eye" everything that is going on the back of the stage or even the corners of a studio. Many electronics, cables, front-ends lack this ability. Even the type of RCF or RCM one uses affects the ability to see into the back of the stage.
Given sufficient output voltage from the source, how can that even be possible, though? I know I'm being a pain, here, and I'm sorry, but with sources designed to drive amps directly, with sufficient gain to drive a given amplifier directly, what you guys are suggesting - that putting another component in the signal path lessens the resistance in that path, just doesn't make any sense.
I just can't wrap my head around this one.
Tim
Sounds to me like your defining transparency as the boosting of ambient sounds in a recording.
Guys, do we REALLY need to spend time defining transparency? Let's not over complicate matters here.
You missed the point entirely. You can never really feed the source directly to the power amp unless the source or the amp have volume pots or unless you just like to drive your amp to full output all the time and enjoy those types of listening levels. So once you start sending the source signal through some wire to the pots and more wire from the pots to the RCA jacks or wire from the pots to the input of your amplifier, you are now mucking about with the signal.
Dan, nice to see you over here!
Just my perspective on your post. I have owned PMC FB1i's and EB1i's and also did not find them to work well in a power amp direct configuration. I found them a touch forward and fatiguing as you say. The preamps I tried smoothed them over and addressed this.
The text quoted above is not technically correct, this had been incorrectly stated also previously in this thread. I responded to clarify (around page 6), but in short sources with built in volume control functionality do not contain the whole host of components that make up a preamp. It really is the case of absence vs presence of a preamp.
Just my perspective on your post. I have owned PMC FB1i's and EB1i's and also did not find them to work well in a power amp direct configuration. I found them a touch forward and fatiguing as you say. The preamps I tried smoothed them over and addressed this.
The text quoted above is not technically correct, this had been incorrectly stated also previously in this thread. I responded to clarify (around page 6), but in short sources with built in volume control functionality do not contain the whole host of components that make up a preamp. It really is the case of absence vs presence of a preamp.
As I said, many haven't experienced it. There is no artificiality. You can see in the mind's eye the drum set in the back corner of the studio. just as if you were there at the recording. You can clearly make out and hear a singer offstage entering the stage. There is utterly nothing between you and the instrument or singer. Then again, I find that a unique property of the Martin-Logans.
And yes, it's important to understand since i find too many terms tossed around too lightly.
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