I'm not sure what you consider a "moderately sized room". Assuming it's something like Bruce B.'s studio (about 23' x 13' x 10'), I think you'd have trouble doing it for $30k. 2 "good" subs alone would likely run at least $4k.
Perception, science, engineering and high-end audio
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I'm not sure what you consider a "moderately sized room". Assuming it's something like Bruce B.'s studio (about 23' x 13' x 10'), I think you'd have trouble doing it for $30k. 2 "good" subs alone would likely run at least $4k.
I believe it is the opposite. If by full range we're talking going into the 20s even quarter wave makes for a pretty big room. Real Estate is typically more expensive than equipment
Tim needs to tell us what the system is that he would put together for $6-$7K that is full range and sounds great and would load a fairly good size room. It has to include a source and all cables. My room is 23' L x 15' W x 9' H. I don't know how *average* those dimensions are. I don't consider my room to be huge, but I don't consider it to be small either. I do consider myself lucky to have it though. Between my main speakers and subs, they are almost $10K retail which is less than some people on this forum have invested in power cords. I guess it all depends on what you are willing to settle for vs. how resolving your system is and how good it sounds.
Putting aside for the moment we seemingly cannot divorce ourselves from our own flavor choices, one could easily do it for under 30K. 6-7K? I don't know, I've never tried. 2 Submersives, which are not just good but completely great subs, will cost 4K for the pair.
Can we try $10K? How about two Seaton Catalysts 8C's, a SubMersive (all new for $7K), Competently built cables (Blue Jeans), an Oppo Player and a Mini TacT. Clean and tight bass into the teens, slam, close to zero compression at absurd volumes (woudl do quite well in the defined space), precise imaging, blah, blah. Can we spend more and do better? Yes but for my money (and ears) we are at the point of paying a lot for each small improvement. (This assumes a well designed listeninig room!)
If interested, I could come up with a dozen more configurations, but won't. And if we can do used, the list gets much, much longer. Much!!
But for the same reason there are many diverse camps in this hobby (subjective/objective, analog/digital, et al), many would not agree that this system qualifies as described above. It does for me.
I consider any domestic living room with a 23' foot wall fairly large, not moderate, and so would the overwhelming majority of Americans, who typically have larger homes than most Europeans. Let's get this in average folks land here, shall we, and see if average folks can have a full range, low distortion system. I think they can. My active speakers, AVi's ADM 9.1s are self-powered. They drive two 6" woofers and two one" dome tweeters with 250 watts for each woofer and 75 watts for each tweeter. They also include a DAC and a remote control preamp, so all you have to do is plug in a source. They are low distortion. I don't know what the current exchange rate is but they'll run in the neighborhood of $2k. The matching sub drives a 10" speaker with 200 watts to below 30 hz. Not quite "full range," but pretty close. At the current exchange rate a system with one sub would cost you a little over $3300. Let's go nuts here. Let's buy two sets of monitors and two subs. $6600. And what you essentially have is a pair of full range speakers with two six inch mid-bass drivers, two 1" dome tweeters and a 10" woofer in each, 850 watts of amplification per channel -- fully active (5 amps per stereo channel). I think I can "pressurize" your room. Even your 23 foot room. Picture it in your mind, wrapped up in the usual tower and heavy aluminum boxes. Double tweeters. Double mid-bass drivers. Big woofers on bottom. Massive power. SPLs. Pressure.
And yes, it is "low distortion." We can argue over all of the subjective qualifiers later. That wasn't the challenge here, but I'll give you my subjective evaluation: This kind of system has a clarity and precision that is difficult to match in a passive system. It can be done but it costs an awful lot of money.
You don't have to do this with my personal choice, by they way. I went there because it is familiar ground and, frankly, the integration of the preamp and DAC made it easier to hit the price point. But you could easily accomplish the same thing with a couple of pairs of monitors and subs from any number of pro manufacturers, and a simple, well-designed DAC pre. Bump the price point up to $10k and open up a LOT of options.
Full range, low distortion, and high enough spls to create a hell of a lot of pressure, even in a pretty big domestic room, is just not that expensive. "High end" is expensive. It's the nature of the beast. And that's not to say that it is all foo. Take those 5 drivers per side and package them in beautiful furniture-grade cabinets, put the preamp and those 8 power amps in beautifully designed and crafted aluminum boxes, connect it all together with good cable, and it's going to cost a lot more than it does in its current, very efficient form. But it won't sound better. None of that will lower the distortion or extend the range.
Tim
And yes, it is "low distortion." We can argue over all of the subjective qualifiers later. That wasn't the challenge here, but I'll give you my subjective evaluation: This kind of system has a clarity and precision that is difficult to match in a passive system. It can be done but it costs an awful lot of money.
You don't have to do this with my personal choice, by they way. I went there because it is familiar ground and, frankly, the integration of the preamp and DAC made it easier to hit the price point. But you could easily accomplish the same thing with a couple of pairs of monitors and subs from any number of pro manufacturers, and a simple, well-designed DAC pre. Bump the price point up to $10k and open up a LOT of options.
Full range, low distortion, and high enough spls to create a hell of a lot of pressure, even in a pretty big domestic room, is just not that expensive. "High end" is expensive. It's the nature of the beast. And that's not to say that it is all foo. Take those 5 drivers per side and package them in beautiful furniture-grade cabinets, put the preamp and those 8 power amps in beautifully designed and crafted aluminum boxes, connect it all together with good cable, and it's going to cost a lot more than it does in its current, very efficient form. But it won't sound better. None of that will lower the distortion or extend the range.
Tim
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Hi
I have been always fascinated by these exercises.. I came to realize how much , we, audiophiles are disconnected from the real-world of Audio reproduction where $10 K for a system have people rolling their eyes in disbelief... 6~7 K can these days buy a decent full range system that will satisfy many people ..maybe not the hard core audiophile used t more refined reproduction but most people .. I will propose two systems at $5,000 or less each
Let us suppose a fair sized room: Say 18 X 12X 10 .... Right now the size of the Living Room where I am typing this
... I have no doubt that both systems would fulfill the full range and good sound requirements... As a card-carrying audiophile I prefer the second, audiophile system .... I have assembled similar systems for friends System 1 Pro-Audio /HT Components.
Makie HR 824 Speakers (Active) ...............$ 1300
Apogee Mini-DAC................................$ 650
Garry's Server ...................................$ 350
SVS Dual SB-12 ................................ $1200
Accessories
Asynch USB to SPDIF adapters ...........$ 300
Blue Jean Cables ...............................$300
Total ..............................................$4200
Now let's consider a more "audiophile" version of the same exercise
Magnepan Mg 1.2 Speakers ................................ $1200
Pair of SVS SB12 ................................................$1200
Garry's Server ....................................................$ 350
Bel Canto s300i Integrated DAC/Amp......................$2000
Blue Jean Cable................................................$300
TOTAL...............................................................$5050
If you want it to be audiophile all the way then add $250 for some Supra cable
Hi
I have been always fascinated by these exercises.. I came to realize how much , we, audiophiles are disconnected from the real-world of Audio reproduction where $10 K for a system have people rolling their eyes in disbelief... 6~7 K can these days buy a decent full range system that will satisfy many people ..maybe not the hard core audiophile used t more refined reproduction but most people .. I will propose two systems at $5,000 or less each
Let us suppose a fair sized room: Say 18 X 12X 10 .... Right now the size of the Living Room where I am typing this
System 1 Pro-Audio /HT Components.
Makie HR 824 Speakers (Active) ...............$ 1300
Apogee Mini-DAC................................$ 650
Garry's Server ...................................$ 350
SVS Dual SB-12 ................................ $1200
Accessories
Asynch USB to SPDIF adapters ...........$ 300
Blue Jean Cables ...............................$300
Total ..............................................$4200
Now let's consider a more "audiophile" version of the same exercise
Magnepan Mg 1.2 Speakers ................................ $1200
Pair of SVS SB12 ................................................$1200
Garry's Server ....................................................$ 350
Bel Canto s300i Integrated DAC/Amp......................$2000
Blue Jean Cable................................................$300
TOTAL...............................................................$5050
If you want it to be audiophile all the way then add $250 for some Supra cable
Frantz, who cares what anyone else thinks? Let them roll their eyes until the pop out. Everyone needs to live their own life and decide what’s important in terms of pleasures in their life instead of judging others. There is no clear dividing line between a necessity and a luxury. Necessity is one of those relative terms that depends on who you are or where you are in life. When things become important, they become necessities. Most people are smart enough to know how to make big money decisions and do it after a lot of careful reflection. People are willing to spend a lot of money on certain things if they think they have value and want them and can afford them – whether it’s a BMW or a Viking range or a fancy vacation or an expensive audio system.
Take the Magnepan speakers you bring up above as an example. I think it’s a great example because the speakers are quite good and technically better than most products at their price points. The 1.6 , priced at $1,995, goes from 40 Hz-to 24kHz. The 3.7, priced at $5,500, goes from 35 Hz to 40 Khz. The 20.7, priced at $14,000, goes from 25Hz -40kHz. As you go up the Magnepan chain, the technical differences between the models actually result in superior functional performance – objectively and subjectively. These technical and functional differences also result in a strong emotional connection to Magnepan.
To take this further, let’s compare the best Magnepan to a speaker costing as much as a luxury sedan – Magico Q5, Maxx 3, MBL, Scaena, Vivid Giya, etc. This bunch of speakers will outperform the Magnepan in terms of the bass slam, jump factor and dynamics, imaging, transparency, and other audiophile words. Sure they cost A LOT more money, but people get genuine improvements and real differences as they spend their hard earned dollars.
Fortunately, we live in a free society. If that fancy system makes someone feel happier, more appreciated, or more accomplished, it’s a great thing. If that great system helps someone deal with stress and difficulties, outstanding. If that great system helps someone connect with friends, awesome. Seeking moments of retreat, emotional uplift, comfort, stress reduction, and bliss are more than just about mindless consumption. And if high end audio is the vehicle, it’s a great thing.
Can you please clarify what he thinks is incomplete? The way some people go on here, they seem to think that all that is known about audio has already been discovered.
LOL. Not everybody Keith. To most it's still as Forrest Gump says, still like a box of chocolates.
All good, subjective, arguable points, Ceasar, but a different argument. This one was about the cost of full range and low distortion.
Tim
Hi
Tim point remains correct and to me at less than 6000 US dolars , one can assemble a very good Full Range and not-SPL-starved Stereo System .. And since the price point advanced was $6~7000.. Go ahead , replace the MG 1.2 with the 1.7 ... Results? greater everything
@Caesar
I am asking this question to the august Caesar .. Have you heard the 3.7 and 20.7 ? Have you compared them to sedan-priced speakers and draw that conclusion ? Your points remain subjective.. A matter of preference .. But Have you compared the speakers you mentioned .. Have you auditioned them in the same systems/ Or to give a wider berth, similar systems?or did you come to these conclusions because of the price differences? An intellectually dangerous path I would warn you ..
I find interesting that many whose only contributions to the Science and Arts of Audio Reproduction, are a few posts, babbles and opinions on Audio Fora are not too far from disparaging the work of people like Sean Olive ... No respectable Scientist would claim they know everything but to simply disparage his research findings and body of work, framing them this way is at least unfortunate, some would term it, sad .. Then again, I have rarely seen Science attacked with such vigor, maybe I shouldn't be surprised.
I think Frantz' Maggie system would be fabulous for acoustic music. I think my two pairs of active monitors/two subs system would excell at rock, jazz, pop and film soundtracks. I want both systems - one at each end of the room and a swivel chair in the sweet spot. That would be <$14k and deliver an awful lot. Would a $50k system be better? A $100k system? That's where we get into that really deep, fuzzy conversation that is the heart of the audiophile dialogue. What is "better?" Low distortion? Full range? High enough SPLs to get to "concert volume" (if you're into that sort of thing) in your room? I don't think either one of the <$7k systems here fall short in any meaningful way ("meaningful" taking into consideration my system's less than 10hz shortfall of "full range").
Tim
Tim
By the way, I owned and loved my Maggies. I had SMGc's in the bedroom and 1.6QRs which replaced Revel F30s. Maggies are seriously underrated for cinema. Even with a box type center speaker everything still seemed seamless. Still when I wanted to play rock or dance music there was a limit to how loud they could play. You could turn up the volume and it would just start to compress. The twin VR-S1 subs couldn't help as this was happening outside their range. My amps at the time were a Levinson 23.5 then later a No.332. Much more powerful than the BC S300i Frantz mentioned of which I own two right now powering Duevel Planets in the living room and dining room fronted by Sonos Zone Players.
Those of us who have "sedan" speakers, especially the really big ones go big not to go loud but to go loud with ease. If ease can be considered "meaningful" I will beg to disagree. I guarantee no DBTs will be required for this comparison.
Those of us who have "sedan" speakers, especially the really big ones go big not to go loud but to go loud with ease. If ease can be considered "meaningful" I will beg to disagree. I guarantee no DBTs will be required for this comparison.
I don't have a tremendous amount of experience wth Maggies, but what I do have syncs with yours, which is why I thought they would be really good for acoustic music and the 4 actives/2 subs system might be better for louder, more dynamic material. If you ever put together such a high-powered completely active system, I think you'd be knocked over by the "loudness with ease" you'd get. The sense of ease is pretty remarkable just with two really well-designed active monitors. And unlike big floor-standers, you'd have broad flexibility with placement -- haven't tried this myself, so let me admit up front that it is purely speculative -- not just with subs but with the halves of your "towers." You would have the ability to manipulate the sound stage in a number of ways -- One pair up high, pointing down a bit, the other on stands at ear level? One pair further forward then the other...might enhance a sense of depth? One pair a normal distance apart and the other further out? Or you could just stack 'em, crank it up and rock. But you'd have options.
And of course you'd have flexibility in the placement of subs, to help deal with room issues and get the proper "pressurization."
You might be able to accomplish things, particularly with sound staging, with such a 4 speaker/stereo arrangement that would be impossible with a "sedan" speaker system....at any price.
I'd love to have a big room and the speakers to play with the concept for awhile. I can't be the first one to have thought of it. Anybody know of any similar experiments?
Oh and by the way...we're all subjectivists in the end. We run out of measurements. We run out of words. We get to the transducers at one end and the recordings at the other, realize how elusive perfection is and make our choices; subjectively. And then we try to describe it. But the "meaningfullness" of less than 10hz at the bottom of the audible spectrum? Barely/rarely audible. Not all that subjective.
Tim
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