Perception, science, engineering and high-end audio

[kevinh]

Which is easy, depending on your attitude toward "full range." While understand that the documented range of human hearing is 20 to 20k, I personally feel that 20 cycles is wasted on music reproduction. Home theater? Sure, if reproducing explosions in your home is your thing. And I suppose there are some subtle overtones below 30hz if you listen to pipe organs. I don't. If I'm getting below 30hz, the music I listen to is covered. And I don't think I'm the exception. YMMV.

I've heard quite a few "affordable" Polk subs. I think they're pretty good at their price point, but I'm a little surprised that's what Geddes recommends. You can do audibly better for a few hundred dollars more. Above that, for real music, the cost benefit ratio starts to get dicey.

Tim

I agree with you take since I don't listen to organ music I am not worried about going below 30hz.

I bought 3 of the Polk's for my daufhter's HT system and set them up as per Earl's recommendations
they worked quite will in giving a good bass performance fo the room.

I think Geddes larger point was the importance of multiple subs to control bass modes, and that the types of distortions produced by subs are tolerable to the ear. So muultiple 'cheap' subs set up properly was preferable to a single 'super' sub. Certainly if one went to multiple subs with higher quality one would expect better results.

I believe he had some papers on his website concerning the audibility of distortion in loudspeakers.

Note that for the budget at the price point I proposed the most expensive component was the room treatment,
if you include the deqx as room treatment you are talking about 60% of the budget

 

[FrantzM]

I have never heard the Polk subs so I can't comment. I must however say that ROOm gain must be always kept in any discussions about subwoofers... In anechoic conditions a sub (better callit a woofer then ) may be down 10 dB at 20 Hz but once in the room , in a corner could see its ouput somewhat lifted by the corners and thus provide some usable output even below 20... Add to that three subs and indeed you may reach even lower...

I am a big proponent of the Geddes sub method.

I should have added a third SVS NS12 to my examples ...

 

[Gregadd]

I welcome the comments of others but when I 've played subs alone I rarely heard anything resembling a recognizable musical instrument. Perhaps that depends on the crossover point and source material.

If $30k is the limit I see no real rason to spend more than that for a dream system. My suggestion statrt with the Sandersoundsytemsm 10 and magtech amp.
When you dip under $10k that's when the real work statrts.

 

[microstrip]

Which is easy, depending on your attitude toward "full range." While understand that the documented range of human hearing is 20 to 20k, I personally feel that 20 cycles is wasted on music reproduction. Home theater? Sure, if reproducing explosions in your home is your thing. (...)
Tim

Tim,

We should remember that the expression 20 cycles has a different meaning for you, for Mark Weiss and for me. In order to define the lowest octave we have to refer to the threshold of cut-off, slope and loudness. Assuming my perspective (something like - 20Hz at -10 db with a 12dB /octave slope and maximum volume around 105 dB) , I think this part of the spectrum is of real value for stereo listening. When properly implemented, it gives good recordings a feeling of spaciousness and of being closer to the real think, enhancing imaging and the feeling of a powerful sound.

For home-theater I have found that bass punch, incisiveness and definition are as important as frequency extension .

 

[treitz3]

....I think this part of the spectrum is of real value for stereo listening....

You are not alone in your thoughts or observations for 2-channel music.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim,

We should remember that the expression 20 cycles has a different meaning for you, for Mark Weiss and for me. In order to define the lowest octave we have to refer to the threshold of cut-off, slope and loudness. Assuming my perspective (something like - 20Hz at -10 db with a 12dB /octave slope and maximum volume around 105 dB) , I think this part of the spectrum is of real value for stereo listening. When properly implemented, it gives good recordings a feeling of spaciousness and of being closer to the real think, enhancing imaging and the feeling of a powerful sound.

For home-theater I have found that bass punch, incisiveness and definition are as important as frequency extension .

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, micro. I think most recordings don't have any significant information down there to reproduce, no signal to amplify to move the driver and, therefore, nothing to create a "sense of spaciousness." And in the rare case that it does, I'll pass on that sense of spaciousness created by subsonic rumble. Not my cup of tea. YMMV.

Tim

 

[rbbert]

I welcome the comments of others but when I 've played subs alone I rarely heard anything resembling a recognizable musical instrument. Perhaps that depends on the crossover point and source material.

If $30k is the limit I see no real rason to spend more than that for a dream system. My suggestion statrt with the Sandersoundsytemsm 10 and magtech amp.
When you dip under $10k that's when the real work statrts.

Actually $6-7k was Tim's limit, which I took issue with. By "musical qualities" for a sub I was referring to those same things like transient response, distortion, etc, that are commonly measured and referred to as important to subwoofer quality, as opposed to simple frequency response.

Speakers like the Saunders, Magnepan 20.7 and M-L Summit X would indeed be reasonable places to start. Add subs, source components, amps, cables, racks, and room treatments and you're going to be near or over $30k.

 

[FrantzM]

Actually $6-7k was Tim's limit, which I took issue with. By "musical qualities" for a sub I was referring to those same things like transient response, distortion, etc, that are commonly measured and referred to as important to subwoofer quality, as opposed to simple frequency response.

Speakers like the Saunders, Magnepan 20.7 and M-L Summit X would indeed be reasonable places to start. Add subs, source components, amps, cables, racks, and room treatments and you're going to be near or over $30k.

I am with microstrip on the below 30 Hz point... There is a wealth of information down low.. The differences are audible even in chamber music ...

@rbbert

Come one Man! Play fair a system with the Magnepan 1.7 and a pair or trio of subs such as the SVS NS12 and the Bel Canto S300i is very good, cost less than 6 K and will be as full range as you want to.. from under 20Hz to over 20 KHz ... .. Yes you get better everything with the speakers you mentioned but the point remains: one can get full range at less than $6K.. Come on Man! play fair

Have you tried Gary's server .. that could be the best $350 you ever spent in Audio!

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Actually $6-7k was Tim's limit, which I took issue with. By "musical qualities" for a sub I was referring to those same things like transient response, distortion, etc, that are commonly measured and referred to as important to subwoofer quality, as opposed to simple frequency response.

Speakers like the Saunders, Magnepan 20.7 and M-L Summit X would indeed be reasonable places to start. Add subs, source components, amps, cables, racks, and room treatments and you're going to be near or over $30k.

There's really no point in arguing the point anymore. I've presented my sub $7k system. $6600. Low distortion/full range. Enough drivers and watts to pressurize your a$$ out the window. Need a source? I can hook you up with a little $200 box that takes USB in, isolates, reclocks and sends out digital coax, optical or XLR. Got a computer? Plug it in, you'll get better performance than any transport.

You can come up with >$30k systems, or >$100k systems that (maybe) meet the same criteria all day. All that does is support my point: Low noise/low distortion/high fidelity/high SPL is not expensive, "high end" is.

Tim

 

[Gregadd]

Actually $6-7k was Tim's limit, which I took issue with. By "musical qualities" for a sub I was referring to those same things like transient response, distortion, etc, that are commonly measured and referred to as important to subwoofer quality, as opposed to simple frequency response.

Speakers like the Saunders, Magnepan 20.7 and M-L Summit X would indeed be reasonable places to start. Add subs, source components, amps, cables, racks, and room treatments and you're going to be near or over $30k.

Actually Ron suggested $30k. I am a consumer advocate and suggest you spend as little as you can. Also I encoiurage non-audiophile solutions to your problems.

OTOH Playing mass instruments at high SPL puts a a strian on youir system. It costs money to deal with that.

 

[rbbert]

Actually, I was the one who suggested $30k, but that's of little matter. I must have missed Tim's proposed system, but whatever it is I doubt it would reproduce something like a jazz quartet (piano, bass, drums, sax or trumpet) at anything like realistic levels or with realistic "impact". Whether it's ameliorating room nodes or something else, I have found subwoofers necessary to accurately (satisfyingly?) reproduce bass even in the 40-60 Hz where the main speakers are working well (and the subs are crossed over at or below).

 

[Gregadd]

rbbert- here is what Ron said-

Putting aside for the moment we seemingly cannot divorce ourselves from our own flavor choices, one could easily do it for under 30K. 6-7K? I don't know, I've never tried. 2 Submersives, which are not just good but completely great subs, will cost 4K for the pair.

Sorry Ron and rbbert.

 

[Ron Party]

Greg, go back further in the thread.

I strongly disagree with the notion 30K is required, even with room treatment. Chuck posted a 10K system, excluding room treatment, that'll do it. I'm with rbbert on one thing though: I wouldn't assemble a system without at least a pair of subwoofers.

 

[microstrip]

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, micro. I think most recordings don't have any significant information down there to reproduce, no signal to amplify to move the driver and, therefore, nothing to create a "sense of spaciousness." And in the rare case that it does, I'll pass on that sense of spaciousness created by subsonic rumble. Not my cup of tea. YMMV.

Tim

Tim,

My hears and my audio spectrometer strongly disagree with you. I am just looking to the audio spectrometer screen with a resolution was .673 Hz listening to a Shostakovitch symphony (CD digital recording - DDD) and it shows very significant information in the band between 20 and 30Hz and even at 20Hz.

 

[rbbert]

I heard this at RAMF (with subs) and it was very impressive!

Kit abailable for the Keele design for 2k

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=301-980

 

[rbbert]

Greg, go back further in the thread.

I strongly disagree with the notion 30K is required, even with room treatment. Chuck posted a 10K system, excluding room treatment, that'll do it. I'm with rbbert on one thing though: I wouldn't assemble a system without at least a pair of subwoofers.

Is this the system with Seaton speakers? I've never heard them, and their website is being remodeled so it's not easy to learn more about them. I stand by my statements, though; something like an acoustic jazz quartet is unlikely to have its volume and transients reproduced by an under $10k system, even moving into "kit" components (not what I had in mind, nor I think what Tim did either with his post that started this).

 

[Gregadd]

Happily the advent of HT has prodiced a a cornacopia of competent reasonably priced subs.

 

[Gregadd]

Is this the system with Seaton speakers? I've never heard them, and their website is being remodeled so it's not easy to learn more about them. I stand by my statements, though; something like an acoustic jazz quartet is unlikely to have its volume and transients reproduced by an under $10k system, even moving into "kit" components (not what I had in mind, nor I think what Tim did either with his post that started this).

If you have heard the Sandersounsystem it can go withouit subs.

If you can do it for $10k name that system.

 

[Ron Party]

Is this the system with Seaton speakers? I've never heard them, and their website is being remodeled so it's not easy to learn more about them. I stand by my statements, though; something like an acoustic jazz quartet is unlikely to have its volume and transients reproduced by an under $10k system

I'm unclear about his website being remodeled; it appears as it has for some time. It's OK that you have difficulty in believing what a Seaton speaker set up can do. Many Audiophiles equate price with performance or, perhaps better stated, absence of high price with absence of high performance. Ask Audioguy what speakers he replaced with his 12Cs.

 

[rbbert]

Huh? There's nothing there? www.seatonsound.net?

BTW, I'm all about less expensive unheralded components.