Perception, science, engineering and high-end audio
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Not quite true my friend. Few instruments have a range down to 20Hz but that is not to say a typical recording does not have a lot of information down to 20 Hz. I wish I could find those graph's of Bruce he posted two years ago of the average FR of non organ music songs. In my room I measure lots of 20Hz on ordinary music on my Phonic (my iPhone App measures down to only 30). So what makes up that content? Typically recorded or introduced reverb. Yup, it makes the soundscape appear larger which is why it was recorded or introduced in the first place. If scale matters that last octave matters.
Not quite true my friend. Few instruments have a range down to 20Hz but that is not to say a typical recording does not have a lot of information down to 20 Hz. I wish I could find those graph's of Bruce he posted two years ago of the average FR of non organ music songs. In my room I measure lots of 20Hz on ordinary music on my Phonic (my iPhone App measures down to only 30). So what makes up that content? Typically recorded or introduced reverb. Yup, it makes the soundscape appear larger which is why it was recorded or introduced in the first place. If scale matters that last octave matters.
We're fussing over the meaning of "significant" Jack. I've heard subs playing by themselves too many times to believe in the ambience contained therein. YMMV.
Tim
Synthesizers can play quite low. ...Lower than the lowest piano note; the A0 key, at 27.5Hz.
...Not counting the biggest Organs with the longest pipes.
*** Some Telarc music CDs have subterranean bass in the 5Hz region.
Synthesizers' special effects for film soundtracks.
But I'm sure you guys knew that already.
...Not counting the biggest Organs with the longest pipes.
*** Some Telarc music CDs have subterranean bass in the 5Hz region.
Synthesizers' special effects for film soundtracks.
But I'm sure you guys knew that already.
Not really Tim. I'm talking about signal content and that is content down there measured empirically. That content however is part of a much wider spectrum (full) of which the subs only reproduce a part. If you can't identify the ambience as such it would be analogous to trying to listen and understand what someone is saying through a closed door which wont let much of the consonant sounds through. That is why our mileage varies.
I think that test gives a skewed view of the situation. Yes, I have done that demo many times, and no, in no way does it sound anything like 'music'.
I find smooth extended bass is the platform for ambience, as counter intuitive as it sounds. The more bass envelopment you have the more ambience, it is as if it is the 'carrier wave' so to speak.
In any case, the counter view to your test is sort of along these lines...the full 'effect' of the bass is unsatisfactory if the upper harmonics are removed (ie play subs alone, none of the associated upper frequencies), equally the same in reverse, if you only have the upper frequencies (ie no sub) then that too is incomplete. We may think it is not cause we still get a damned good sonic representation, but still incomplete in my book.
Hope that made sense
I'm certain that smooth, extended bass below the neighborhood of 50hz is one (small) part of the audio information that helps create the illusion of ambience. Ambience - natural and artificial reverb in a recording - is all over the frequency spectrum. I've sat in studios too many times and heard it turned on and off of speakers that went nowhere near 20hz. If you boys want to believe you can't get "ambience" without a few $2k subwoofers, enjoy that. But spend your efforts convincing your wives; you don't need my approval. And let's put this in perspective, in this conversation we're not debating mini-monitors vs full-rangers. We're talking about subs that go to 20 vs subs that go to 26. Let's do a blind AB/X to see if you can consistently hear that last 6 or 7 hz shall we?
Tim
And let's put this in perspective, in this conversation we're not debating mini-monitors vs full-rangers. We're talking about subs that go to 20 vs subs that go to 26. Let's do a blind AB/X to see if you can consistently hear that last 6 or 7 hz shall we?Tim
I'm certain that smooth, extended bass below the neighborhood of 50hz is one (small) part of the audio information that helps create the illusion of ambience. Ambience - natural and artificial reverb in a recording - is all over the frequency spectrum. I've sat in studios too many times and heard it turned on and off of speakers that went nowhere near 20hz. If you boys want to believe you can't get "ambience" without a few $2k subwoofers, enjoy that. But spend your efforts convincing your wives; you don't need my approval.
Tim
Hi Tim, Speaking for myself, i have Wilson X1/Grand Slamms and run the Velodyne with a 38db rolloff at 38hz or so. And it makes a big difference on about 75% of my music. I nearly always work while i listen, particularly on the weekends. And what i find is that without the sub, the sound does not have the depth at low volumes that is satisfying...and thus i tend to turn the volume higher and higher. By higher and higher, i mean late at nite, with the sub i am perfectly happpy at 1-5 on the volume to ensure not to disturb anyone...but without the sub, i am constantly trying to get that nice deep satisfying low-end, and i inevitably end up at 12-15 which is pushing it at 1-2am.
I also can mute my amp so i can immediately listen to just hte sub which runs from the pre to the sub separately. And there is information coming thru on about 75% of my music.
I am NOT saying it is all the last 6 hz, but i also believe even Wilson's people recommended crossover around the 35hz mark =/- depending on the room. so i suspect subs are not about the last 6 hz as much as filling in the last 15hz or so. And there definitely is a difference then between the last 15hz or so. And there is 25% of my music (deep house electronic) where they purposely put signals down there. Not to mention video.
No, i run the Velodyne in parallel to the Wilsons which run full range...and cut off the Velodyne performance above 38hz.
yes, that is correct. One thing i find curious is, for example, when i have a lute guitar solo playing Bach...recorded by Linn Recordings who ought to know what they are doing...having it at 'live volumes' so around volume level 40 or so on my preamp...actually triggers the auto on switch of the Velodyne...before any music...all i can hear thru the speakers and sub seems to be low rumble and some shifting nearing the mike.
This is the Geddes approach run the mains full range and use the subs below the Schrodinger freq for the room to control
room modes.
Tim,
If the the subs were playing by themselves, either they were faulty or badly setup - as people say, the best subs are those that are not heard, but felt.
Curious that your definition of accuracy authorizes you to exclude a part of the spectrum of the recording, mainly because it seems you do no like it or the studio monitors where the recording was mixed were not able to play it. You are becoming too subjective!
Really? cool...i did not know that, just found this worked best in the end. I have heard good things about Geddes.
This is most of the time also the audiophile approach! No audiophile with good credentials would be pleased to tell his friends that the signal coming from his great and unique preamplifier is going through a cheap active crossover before going into the power amplifier!
Tim,
If the the subs were playing by themselves, either they were faulty or badly setup - as people say, the best subs are those that are not heard, but felt.
Curious that your definition of accuracy authorizes you to exclude a part of the spectrum of the recording, mainly because it seems you do no like it or the studio monitors where the recording was mixed were not able to play it. You are becoming too subjective!
I know right? How strange is this hobby? LOL
Pssst. I got measurements. Wanna see?
Sure! Let see them!
I will say, i have had a sub in my system since 1995, and i have never wanted to listen without it. At first, i was surprised that i still used it with the X1s...until i discovered that every owner of X1s, X2s i know of or actually know does the same. Off hand, i can think of 6-7 or more. I truly do NOT think it is about all-out assault and cost no object and why not just buy one. There is a reason...and, for me, the sub properly dialed in sets an incredibly concrete foundation at any volume (particuarly low level) which solidifies the soundstage, the music and it is bloody addictive. Turn it off, and really, really miss it on 75% of my music. Take Pink Floyd...low bass but not necessarily the definitive album for that...and the concrete underpinning from the sub means i can enjoy it from any part of the room, at any volume and never feel the need to turn it up.
And in the grand scheme of all my systems over the years, the sub has not been a huge % in cost.
I will say, i have had a sub in my system since 1995, and i have never wanted to listen without it. At first, i was surprised that i still used it with the X1s...until i discovered that every owner of X1s, X2s i know of or actually know does the same. Off hand, i can think of 6-7 or more. I truly do NOT think it is about all-out assault and cost no object and why not just buy one. There is a reason...and, for me, the sub properly dialed in sets an incredibly concrete foundation at any volume (particuarly low level) which solidifies the soundstage, the music and it is bloody addictive. Turn it off, and really, really miss it on 75% of my music. Take Pink Floyd...low bass but not necessarily the definitive album for that...and the concrete underpinning from the sub means i can enjoy it from any part of the room, at any volume and never feel the need to turn it up.
And in the grand scheme of all my systems over the years, the sub has not been a huge % in cost.
I had the ability to turn off the mains and leave the subs running. No one would ener want to listen to that, but it's a good way to hear what different subs are doing.
That's not my definition of accuracy, jack, that's my definition of what I care about, personally. Subjective? Yep.
Tim
That's not my definition of accuracy, jack, that's my definition of what I care about, personally. Subjective? Yep.
Tim
Tim,
If the the subs were playing by themselves, either they were faulty or badly setup - as people say, the best subs are those that are not heard, but felt.
Curious that your definition of accuracy authorizes you to exclude a part of the spectrum of the recording, mainly because it seems you do no like it or the studio monitors where the recording was mixed were not able to play it. You are becoming too subjective!
Hmmm, that's interesting. I have not read up on this approach but my ears tell me that it works well with a musical sub. This is how I have my system set up when the subs are actually engaged, which admittedly is not too often as my mains do a fine job by themselves. That said, with some recordings the illusion is that the sound stage increases in size and realism with the subs running. IME, there is a significant amount of information at those frequencies. Not on all recordings but enough for me to not want to lose it when it is there.
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