Phono cables - the most sensitive and critical cable in your system

[Bobvin]

Bob, you really need to pay more attention......i recently added Stage 3 XLR interconnects for my Wadax combo. but a great phono cable is a specific beast since it's dealing with such a tiny signal. a Stage 3 phono might be great......i have no idea.

Wadax Reference Dac and Server arrive

One of the things I like most in my system is Stealth Audio cables. If you get a chance try a Sakra V17 LE interconnect. It gets right out of the way. hi Aangen, thanks for the recommendation. however, a few post's back i did already demo and purchase a 1.5m set of Phase III XLR Gorgon XLR's...

www.whatsbestforum.com

Doh!

must admit haven’t followed your Wadax thread, with an intent to stop for a visit with no preconceptions of any kind. I don’t think any of my prior visits included much in way of digital listening. Looking forward to the occasion to hear your new toys.

 

[miniguy]

need a 3rd high quality phono cable for my incoming Primary Control FCL arm (likely Etsuro Gold cart....maybe the DaVa), and not sure i can wait 9 months (if i'm lucky) for another LFD to be built.

just pondering a Nordost Odin 2+ phono cable. has anyone done any compares with Odin, Odin 2 or Odin 2+ and other phono cables. do these deliver?......or......? i know a few here have these.

You should contact Joe Cohen about the Pranawire Lalit phono cable. It is the finest one I’ve heard among many over the years. I haven’t heard the latest Odin, but the Lalit handily beat a Valhalla 2. I think the last price I can remember seeing was $5K.

 

[hogen]

need a 3rd high quality phono cable for my incoming Primary Control FCL arm (likely Etsuro Gold cart....maybe the DaVa), and not sure i can wait 9 months (if i'm lucky) for another LFD to be built.

just pondering a Nordost Odin 2+ phono cable. has anyone done any compares with Odin, Odin 2 or Odin 2+ and other phono cables. do these deliver?......or......? i know a few here have these.

I have two Odin2, one V2+, one V2 and two Frey2+ tonearm cables. I think they all deliver very good performance in their respective price classes. But I have not compared with other brands. There certainly should be other good performers out there also.

 

[Kingrex]

You should contact Joe Cohen about the Pranawire Lalit phono cable. It is the finest one I’ve heard among many over the years. I haven’t heard the latest Odin, but the Lalit handily beat a Valhalla 2. I think the last price I can remember seeing was $5K.

Why does a good cable thread have to be ruined with $5K for a phono cable.

 

[miniguy]

Why does a good cable thread have to be ruined with $5K for a phono cable.

It was previously ruined by mention of a $13K cable, Odin 2.

 

[tima]

It proves to me that once you reach a certain level in your system, everything and anything makes quite a different and more expensive is not always better.

Were any of the phono cables you tried subjected to a burn-in? Some folks don't believe it makes a difference but it is almost impossible for that to happen by way of wee tiny voltages.

 

[XV-1]

Were any of the phono cables you tried subjected to a burn-in? Some folks don't believe it makes a difference but it is almost impossible for that to happen by way of wee tiny voltages.

Hi Tim

The Vyda phono was brand new. It did change sound over the 3 weeks I demoed it. When I say change I really mean the cable's soundstage opened a bit more, bass became better defined and the music delivery seemed to be better integrated. It never really changed it's character, however small but important changes in frequency response was important that I believe you would only pick up after listening for a couple of weeks, not hours.

I got to around 90 hours and it didn't change after 60 hours. I also had the Vyda speaker cable in for 100 hours prior to hooking up the phono.

Every other cable was either my own moved from other tables or the Valhalla V2+ bought used. After spinning the V2+ for several days now it is opening up - are are my ears opening up?

Tim, what are your thoughts on burn in. Real or are you burning your brain to a slightly different sound?

 

[Chop]

Mike L's post #5 above, about a phono cable being an opportunity to optimise information is exactly what I think. The smaller the signal the more carefully you have to look after it. I bought a custom LFD phono cable via Mik at Unique Audio. Expensive but it has been wonderful. Gloriously clear with great tonality but with not a trace of brightness or harshness to it. The best phono cable you can afford is an investment.

 

[tima]

Tim, what are your thoughts on burn in. Real or are you burning your brain to a slightly different sound?

When I reviewed the Kuzma 4Point with its new jeweled bearings and Kondo tonearm wireI I took it through a burn in process - 96 hours. Then I did the same with my earlier model 4Point and I also did a burn-in on the tonearm wire of my Tri-Planar Mk VII U2-SE. This was using a Hagerman Frybaby with a home made wiring jig to attach to the cartridge clips.

Before and after listening were separated by 4+ days, so there's the audio memory factor. No A/B/A obviously - can't undo the burn-in. I think I heard a positive change but it was small - slightly more open, slightly richer mid-range tonality with the Tri-Planar; slightly better tonality with the 4Points in terms of mid-tone length and holding onto the fundamental longer into a decay, slightly better articulation. I'm more confident of what I heard with the Tri-Planar and the original 4Point, both I've had for years. Fairly subtle differences but audible - and then I was looking for a difference, so ...

I think its worth doing and/or it should not cause harm. I've reviewed a bunch or other cables and pretty consistently notice changes of varying degrees across, say, 90 days, as you describe, so it seems plausible that tonearm wire should be no different - except that the voltage is so tiny it may not ever see what an IC does. I did not know if your Valhalla 2+ was new or used; I recall Nordost and some dealers have a nice burn-in device that they may use on new product or charge for.

 

[Alrainbow]

Why does audio always seem to be claimed better with burn in ? no need to answer

 

[microstrip]

It was previously ruined by mention of a $13K cable, Odin 2.

Yes, it as a misery mention. WBF deserves the $22k Odin Gold.

 

[Kingrex]

Why does audio always seem to be claimed better with burn in ? no need to answer

I go by the belief, if its not better than what you have right off, its not going to best it later.

I have no idea what burn in is really supposed to do. I do know I can hear the direction a solid wire was drawn through the dies. I have my teaster plugged into my phono preamp right now. Even the power cable matters.

 

[Mendel]

I doubt anyone here will take this seriously, but you don’t have to spend $13K or even $5K for a phono cable. Audio Sensibility makes outstanding phono cables at real world prices. I use the Statement silver cables between my Moerch DP8 and my Coincident Statement Phono Stage. Awesome performance for under $500 (Canadian)! His Signature cables are supposed to be even better for under $1K (I might try these sometime). Even the copper Impact series have garnered rave reviews (under $200).
No I have not tried the Odin or any other cables costing more than my turntable (or my tonearm or my cartridge).

 

[Solypsa]

@Mendel thanks for the budget tip. Since OCC wire comes from basically one place, and the connectors can he bought, do you feel there is something special in the construction that shows in sound quality vs what you would diy with same? Serious question

 

[Mendel]

@Mendel thanks for the budget tip. Since OCC wire comes from basically one place, and the connectors can he bought, do you feel there is something special in the construction that shows in sound quality vs what you would diy with same? Serious question

Hi Solypsa. I am not a cable expert or a diy person, but I would think that there is more to their cables than just OCC wire. I often hear of people making their own power cords or even interconnects, but rarely phono cables. I’m sure it can be done by somebody handy with a soldering iron but that’s not me.

 

[Kingrex]

I tried a SUT a while back. The cable from the SUT to phono stage is very critical. I don't understand why there is so much noise pick up, but it took loads of work to get the hum out.

 

[matakana]

I tried a SUT a while back. The cable from the SUT to phono stage is very critical. I don't understand why there is so much noise pick up, but it took loads of work to get the hum out.

I know ddk would frown if he was to see this ! Its not just the phono cables, This addition of a SGS Extreme Grounding box has made a very worthwhile addition to reducing noise further, on quieter passage's and inbetween tracks is very much noticable.

 

[Atmasphere]

the subject matter is over my head....and i cannot explain how the cable variables (capacitance and shielding) effect the whole chain. an SUT also can be a factor in what cable works best.

i've never approached this phono cable question from the perspective that certain cables work better with certain phono's. but maybe it does work that way?

The issue is capacitance. It can affect a resonance that the cable capacitance has with the inductance of the cartridge and all phono preamps have an input capacitance that affects things in a small way- the capacitance of the cable dominates that equation.

If the phono preamp is unhappy with the RFI caused by that resonance it will act up- and sound different with different cables. The cartridge loading resistor is actually detuning this resonance and preventing the RFI, but it also decreases the compliance of the cartridge.

The mechanism for the RFI is that the electrical resonance present whenever there is an inductance and capacitance in parallel can go into what is called 'excitation' (in radio parlance) simply from the energy of the cartridge itself, even though the output of the cartridge isn't anywhere near the frequency of the resonance (which with LOMC cartridges can be anywhere from 100KHz to 5MKz depending on the capacitance of the cable and inductance of the cartridge). LOMC cartridges typically have a coil that is wider than it is long; this sort of coil is said to have a high 'Q' factor (Q for 'quality'). The higher the Q the sharper the resonance. So the peak of the resonance with this kind of cartridge can be as much as 30dB!!! Some (a lot, actually) of phono preamps really are not that happy with 2 or 3 MHz at 1000x or so higher than the signal level being injected into the input of the preamp!

That is why cables can make such a difference. BTW SUTs are an entirely different matter; for one thing they usually can't pass the RFI along and thus no surprise that some people think they can sound better. But if your preamp is immune to this sort of thing (the sign of a designer that understood the implication of inductance and capacitance in parallel ) then you won't find this to be the case.

If you want to get off the cable game and simply get the most resolution out of the cable you need to go balanced. Cartridges are balanced sources (which is why you have that weird ground wire no other single-ended source seems to need...) and LOMC cartridges are also quite low impedance. So you can run a low impedance balanced line to the phono input (if its also balanced) and pretty well get rid of all that cable interaction. If you combine that with a phono section that also has immunity to that RFI issue not only do you not have to worry about cartridge loading and what that does to compliance, but you also won't have to worry about how the cable is affecting the sound since it won't.

 

[Kingrex]

The issue is capacitance. It can affect a resonance that the cable capacitance has with the inductance of the cartridge and all phono preamps have an input capacitance that affects things in a small way- the capacitance of the cable dominates that equation.

If the phono preamp is unhappy with the RFI caused by that resonance it will act up- and sound different with different cables. The cartridge loading resistor is actually detuning this resonance and preventing the RFI, but it also decreases the compliance of the cartridge.

The mechanism for the RFI is that the electrical resonance present whenever there is an inductance and capacitance in parallel can go into what is called 'excitation' (in radio parlance) simply from the energy of the cartridge itself, even though the output of the cartridge isn't anywhere near the frequency of the resonance (which with LOMC cartridges can be anywhere from 100KHz to 5MKz depending on the capacitance of the cable and inductance of the cartridge). LOMC cartridges typically have a coil that is wider than it is long; this sort of coil is said to have a high 'Q' factor (Q for 'quality'). The higher the Q the sharper the resonance. So the peak of the resonance with this kind of cartridge can be as much as 30dB!!! Some (a lot, actually) of phono preamps really are not that happy with 2 or 3 MHz at 1000x or so higher than the signal level being injected into the input of the preamp!

That is why cables can make such a difference. BTW SUTs are an entirely different matter; for one thing they usually can't pass the RFI along and thus no surprise that some people think they can sound better. But if your preamp is immune to this sort of thing (the sign of a designer that understood the implication of inductance and capacitance in parallel ) then you won't find this to be the case.

If you want to get off the cable game and simply get the most resolution out of the cable you need to go balanced. Cartridges are balanced sources (which is why you have that weird ground wire no other single-ended source seems to need...) and LOMC cartridges are also quite low impedance. So you can run a low impedance balanced line to the phono input (if its also balanced) and pretty well get rid of all that cable interaction. If you combine that with a phono section that also has immunity to that RFI issue not only do you not have to worry about cartridge loading and what that does to compliance, but you also won't have to worry about how the cable is affecting the sound since it won't.

Ralph,
I have been looking for a phono stage. I tried 2 that were way better than my current. Yet they had a hum. I have a Hana ML. I went through an exhaustive list of hum reducing techniques. What I did not try was replacing the cable from the bottom of my tone arm to the phono preamp. Are your comments here saying that cable may be a source of hum.

My current phono pre does not have anywhere near the hum. Another pre I tried was also much more quiet than my current. It just didn't speak to me.
Thanks.

 

[Atmasphere]

Ralph,
I have been looking for a phono stage. I tried 2 that were way better than my current. Yet they had a hum. I have a Hana ML. I went through an exhaustive list of hum reducing techniques. What I did not try was replacing the cable from the bottom of my tone arm to the phono preamp. Are your comments here saying that cable may be a source of hum.

My current phono pre does not have anywhere near the hum. Another pre I tried was also much more quiet than my current. It just didn't speak to me.
Thanks.

It seems unlikely to me that the phono cable is a source of hum (which is different in my book from buzz), unless the cable isn't shielded. If routed past an AC motor though all bets are off!

More likely is that the phono preamp itself is sitting in a hum field, for example near a power transformer of an amplifier or preamp, that sort of thing.

Sometimes the motor (if the right kind of motor) of the turntable isn't grounded properly and can induce hum in the cartridge. Grados often get blamed for this in Rega turntables but the culprit is actually an ungrounded motor. Why this has been an issue for well over a decade is a mystery to me but its easy to fix.

If buzz is the issue rather than hum then the tonearm cable can be at fault. Again shielding is an issue. You might also check to see that the ground wire actually has continuity to the tonearm.