Phono cables - the most sensitive and critical cable in your system

[Atmasphere]

So, do three pin XLR terminations negate the need for ground wires between the tonearm/SUTs and SUTs/phono stage?
Do XLR terminations result in better sound than RCA terminations?

If wired correctly, yes. The shield of the tonearm cable is the tonearm ground connection.

There are two main advantages of the balanced line system. The first is to eliminate ground loops; usually not a problem for a phono input. But the other advantage is to eliminate interconnect cable colorations.

If you've ever heard audio engineers say something to the effect of 'interconnect cables don't affect the sound', its because in their world where everything is balanced, that statement is true. In the audiophile world, where RCA connections dominate, the you definitely hear cable differences.

So the one place to really get the cable right is the tonearm connection- doesn't matter how good the preamp, amps and speakers are; they cannot make up for a loss or coloration upstream.

 

[A-Line]

My Linn table comes with Linn's T- cable. I'm not sure if there's more options for a different tonearm cable. I'm very happy with the sound of my LP12 right now.

 

[Rensselaer]

If wired correctly, yes. The shield of the tonearm cable is the tonearm ground connection.

There are two main advantages of the balanced line system. The first is to eliminate ground loops; usually not a problem for a phono input. But the other advantage is to eliminate interconnect cable colorations.

If you've ever heard audio engineers say something to the effect of 'interconnect cables don't affect the sound', its because in their world where everything is balanced, that statement is true. In the audiophile world, where RCA connections dominate, the you definitely hear cable differences.

So the one place to really get the cable right is the tonearm connection- doesn't matter how good the preamp, amps and speakers are; they cannot make up for a loss or coloration upstream.

Please forgive me, are you saying that three prong XLR connections from tonearm to SUTs, and from SUTs to MM phono pre amp will negate the need for any other grounding? The tonearm is cocobolo wood, still ok? Will interconnects with XLR fittings sound better than RCA interconnects? Regardless of which interconnects are used (eg. Inexpensive interconnects with XLR connections should sound as good as £13,000 Stealth interconnects with RCAs)?

 

[Atmasphere]

My Linn table comes with Linn's T- cable. I'm not sure if there's more options for a different tonearm cable. I'm very happy with the sound of my LP12 right now.

Because it uses that 5 pin connector, the phono signal can be run balanced.

4 of the 5 connections at the tonearm end are for the cartridge. The 5th connection is the tonearm ground. On the T-cable that's the connection for the ground wire. In a balanced connection, it would be the shield of both channels and also pin 1 of the XLR connections of both channels. So it wouldn't be hard to run your tonearm balanced should you ever want to.

Please forgive me, are you saying that three prong XLR connections from tonearm to SUTs, and from SUTs to MM phono pre amp will negate the need for any other grounding? The tonearm is cocobolo wood, still ok? Will interconnects with XLR fittings sound better than RCA interconnects? Regardless of which interconnects are used (eg. Inexpensive interconnects with XLR connections should sound as good as £13,000 Stealth interconnects with RCAs)?

To the first question: yes. To the 2nd: if its quiet now running single ended, then 'yes'.

Its not the connectors that sound better. Its the whole thing- connectors, balanced cable and balanced operation, so to your 3rd question, 'yes'. But to qualify that, even though the balanced cables might be less expensive, they should be properly built and also the practice of low capacitance should still be observed. 'Properly built' means a twisted pair for the signal (cartridge connections) inside a shield, all low capacitance; that's not expensive to do.

Now if you are running an SUT, any transformer can run balanced input and output or can convert from balanced to single-ended and vice versa. Depending on the SUT you're using, you might have to jump through some hoops to set up the SUT so it can do that. A lot of SUTs are only offered in boxes that have RCA connection on them but that does not mean they can only be run single-ended. If your phono section only has single-ended input, the SUT can go from a balanced input to a single-ended output. You still get the advantage of cable neutrality between the arm and SUT.

 

[A-Line]

Because it uses that 5 pin connector, the phono signal can be run balanced.

4 of the 5 connections at the tonearm end are for the cartridge. The 5th connection is the tonearm ground. On the T-cable that's the connection for the ground wire. In a balanced connection, it would be the shield of both channels and also pin 1 of the XLR connections of both channels. So it wouldn't be hard to run your tonearm balanced should you ever want to.

To the first question: yes. To the 2nd: if its quiet now running single ended, then 'yes'.

Its not the connectors that sound better. Its the whole thing- connectors, balanced cable and balanced operation, so to your 3rd question, 'yes'. But to qualify that, even though the balanced cables might be less expensive, they should be properly built and also the practice of low capacitance should still be observed. 'Properly built' means a twisted pair for the signal (cartridge connections) inside a shield, all low capacitance; that's not expensive to do.

Now if you are running an SUT, any transformer can run balanced input and output or can convert from balanced to single-ended and vice versa. Depending on the SUT you're using, you might have to jump through some hoops to set up the SUT so it can do that. A lot of SUTs are only offered in boxes that have RCA connection on them but that does not mean they can only be run single-ended. If your phono section only has single-ended input, the SUT can go from a balanced input to a single-ended output. You still get the advantage of cable neutrality between the arm and SUT.

I might look into options later. Thanks for the info.

 

[Rensselaer]

Because it uses that 5 pin connector, the phono signal can be run balanced.

4 of the 5 connections at the tonearm end are for the cartridge. The 5th connection is the tonearm ground. On the T-cable that's the connection for the ground wire. In a balanced connection, it would be the shield of both channels and also pin 1 of the XLR connections of both channels. So it wouldn't be hard to run your tonearm balanced should you ever want to.

To the first question: yes. To the 2nd: if its quiet now running single ended, then 'yes'.

Its not the connectors that sound better. Its the whole thing- connectors, balanced cable and balanced operation, so to your 3rd question, 'yes'. But to qualify that, even though the balanced cables might be less expensive, they should be properly built and also the practice of low capacitance should still be observed. 'Properly built' means a twisted pair for the signal (cartridge connections) inside a shield, all low capacitance; that's not expensive to do.

Now if you are running an SUT, any transformer can run balanced input and output or can convert from balanced to single-ended and vice versa. Depending on the SUT you're using, you might have to jump through some hoops to set up the SUT so it can do that. A lot of SUTs are only offered in boxes that have RCA connection on them but that does not mean they can only be run single-ended. If your phono section only has single-ended input, the SUT can go from a balanced input to a single-ended output. You still get the advantage of cable neutrality between the arm and SUT.

The Phasemation T-2000 SUTs (2 units, one for each channel) have both 3-pin XLR in and out as well as RCA in and out.
The Ypsilon VPS100 MM phono stage has both 3-pin XLR and RCA inputs, outputs are RCA only.

 

[Rensselaer]

The Phasemation T-2000 SUTs (2 units, one for each channel) have both 3-pin XLR in and out as well as RCA in and out.
The Ypsilon VPS100 MM phono stage has both 3-pin XLR and RCA inputs, outputs are RCA only.

So atmosphere, does the above require grounding?
Will XLR terminated wire sound better than RCA terminated wire, regardless the price (what would be the point otherwise)?

 

[Atmasphere]

So atmosphere, does the above require grounding?
Will XLR terminated wire sound better than RCA terminated wire, regardless the price (what would be the point otherwise)?

It will require grounding but that's built into the cabling. IOW you would not have to run ground wires.

As long as the cable is built properly I would expect it to sound better; by 'better' I mean more neutral. I qualified that statement since you can't just put an XLR connector in replacement of the RCA connector and expect the same results.

 

[hifilife]

It would be awesome if we could get some wiring diagrams in here for every possible scenario (balanced, unbalanced, with SUT, without SUT, etc.). I have read many a tonearm wiring thread and it always seems like diagrams would clear up most of the questions and confusion. Anyone have any good ones?

 

[Rensselaer]

It will require grounding but that's built into the cabling. IOW you would not have to run ground wires.

As long as the cable is built properly I would expect it to sound better; by 'better' I mean more neutral. I qualified that statement since you can't just put an XLR connector in replacement of the RCA connector and expect the same results.

I heard Belden makes good wire, a Swiss company too (can’t recall the name). Do you know of a maker of wire used in recording that will make up din to XLR s and XLR to XLR ?

 

[Atmasphere]

I heard Belden makes good wire, a Swiss company too (can’t recall the name). Do you know of a maker of wire used in recording that will make up din to XLR s and XLR to XLR ?

Usually cable manufacturers like Belden don't make cables like that. I think they do make XLR to XLR but they won't be the low capacitance needed.

We use Mogami Neglex console cable for phono cables when we build them up. Its low capacitance and has a twisted pair in a shield, all oxygen free copper. It's inexpensive and works really well.

Any competent technician can put the cables together.

Cardas makes an excellent 5-pin DIN connector (straight and 90 degree) and the best XLRs we've seen are Neutrik.

 

[Rensselaer]

Usually cable manufacturers like Belden don't make cables like that. I think they do make XLR to XLR but they won't be the low capacitance needed.

We use Mogami Neglex console cable for phono cables when we build them up. Its low capacitance and has a twisted pair in a shield, all oxygen free copper. It's inexpensive and works really well.

Any competent technician can put the cables together.

Cardas makes an excellent 5-pin DIN connector (straight and 90 degree) and the best XLRs we've seen are Neutrik.

The Mogami Neglex cable I found has four wires and copper braid shielding, which I assume you attach to ground pins at din and RCAs, but when I separate to two three-pin XLRs I loose the shielding back to where I separate the cable, right?

I looked up available female 5-pin straight din to two male 3-pin XLR cables to see if something good was already out there and found Nordost Heimdall II, 5-pin din to 2 3-pin XLRs, phono wire selling for €1,595.00, but it has ground wires with spades at each termination (din, each XLR) as well as one to tie the two SUTs together and another to ground one SUT to the phono stage grounding post. This looks like plenty of ground loops. Sort of defeats the purpose of a balanced system, no?

 

[hifilife]

The Mogami Neglex cable I found has four wires and copper braid shielding, which I assume you attach to ground pins at din and RCAs, but when I separate to two three-pin XLRs I loose the shielding back to where I separate the cable, right?

I looked up available female 5-pin straight din to two male 3-pin XLR cables to see if something good was already out there and found Nordost Heimdall II, 5-pin din to 2 3-pin XLRs, phono wire selling for €1,595.00, but it has ground wires with spades at each termination (din, each XLR) as well as one to tie the two SUTs together and another to ground one SUT to the phono stage grounding post. This looks like plenty of ground loops. Sort of defeats the purpose of a balanced system, no?

I don't know which specific cable Atmasphere uses, but if you want a two conductor cable with a shield, check out the Mogami W2549. It's also "Neglex."

 

[Rensselaer]

I don't know which specific cable Atmasphere uses, but if you want a two conductor cable with a shield, check out the Mogami W2549. It's also "Neglex."

I was considering a three wire, with shield, one + , one - , and ground wire for fully balanced operation, though the shield could be used for ground. But that is for the XLR ends. I need 5-wire (2+ , 2- , 1 ground) for the 5-pin din end of the phono cable, to divide and attach to 3-wire leads half way down?

I have looked again and see that although my Ypsilon MM phono stage has XLR input sockets (along with RCAs), but the SUTs only have XLR inputs (they have RCA outputs).

I could make RCA to XLR interconnects to run from my SUTs to my phono stage, but what advantage is a partially-balanced system?

 

[Atmasphere]

The Mogami Neglex cable I found has four wires and copper braid shielding, which I assume you attach to ground pins at din and RCAs, but when I separate to two three-pin XLRs I loose the shielding back to where I separate the cable, right?

I looked up available female 5-pin straight din to two male 3-pin XLR cables to see if something good was already out there and found Nordost Heimdall II, 5-pin din to 2 3-pin XLRs, phono wire selling for €1,595.00, but it has ground wires with spades at each termination (din, each XLR) as well as one to tie the two SUTs together and another to ground one SUT to the phono stage grounding post. This looks like plenty of ground loops. Sort of defeats the purpose of a balanced system, no?

The 4 wire stuff isn't low capacitance. You want the W2944 cable. Its 1/8" in diameter.

I was considering a three wire, with shield, one + , one - , and ground wire for fully balanced operation, though the shield could be used for ground. But that is for the XLR ends. I need 5-wire (2+ , 2- , 1 ground) for the 5-pin din end of the phono cable, to divide and attach to 3-wire leads half way down?

I have looked again and see that although my Ypsilon MM phono stage has XLR input sockets (along with RCAs), but the SUTs only have XLR inputs (they have RCA outputs).

I could make RCA to XLR interconnects to run from my SUTs to my phono stage, but what advantage is a partially-balanced system?

If you have RCA outputs and a separate ground post, you can build a true balanced cable for that too. The RCA connections are the plus and minus outputs of the cartridge and the ground post should tie to the left and right channel shields of the tonearm cable, and then to pin 1 of the XLRs at the other end. On no account should the barrel of the RCA be allowed to contact the shield connection. So we usually join the shields of both cables together at the RCA end using some wire, which has a lug of some kind to connect to the ground post. I happen to be using exactly this kind of cable in my system at home.

 

[Bruce B]

We use Mogami Neglex console cable for phono cables when we build them up. Its low capacitance and has a twisted pair in a shield, all oxygen free copper. It's inexpensive and works really well.

I use Mogami Gold Neglex RCA cables whenever I can.... Only $30 each....

Mogami Gold RCA