Phono Stage and XLRs

Atmasphere

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I don't need a center tap, I don't use balanced signals.
First, it is a PP signal with a corresponding sound signature. I like the SE sound better.
Secondly, for home use, the protection against interference provided by RCA cables is quite sufficient.
In my opinion, there are only two rational uses of balanced signals: the input of a PP amplifier and the output of a delta-sigma DAC.

We are all human and can make mistakes, you and your authorities are no exception.
Balanced operation need not be PP. There are many balanced line products that have single-ended internal circuitry.

If anything, balanced lines have less of a sound signature than single-ended. Because they tend to be more neutral, the advantage to a phono hookup is immediately obvious: no matter how good your amps and speakers are, they cannot make up for a deficiency or loss upstream; the phono cable is the one cable you really have to get right. If you run the phono balanced, this is insanely easy. If you run single-ended, you'll have to audition the 100s of cables out there to find one that sounds best in your system.

Since balanced cables tend to be far more neutral, they are also better at longer distances. This allows one to place monoblock amps near the speakers, which, especially if you run tube amps, helps because you can run shorter speaker cables, allowing for more bass impact and greater definition through the mids and highs. You can run long, inexpensive interconnects that cause no colorations from the front end of the system and are no longer stuck having to put it between the speakers. I run 30 feet of interconnect cable in my system and the preamp is located with the turntable at a spot where its least affected by vibration in the listening room. I could run 60 feet it I wanted and no difference in the sound at all.

The low cost and lack of coloration is an enormous benefit in a world where just a meter long tonearm cable might cost $1000.00.
 

SVS

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Balanced operation need not be PP. There are many balanced line products that have single-ended internal circuitry.
I'm not saying what should happen, I'm saying that the spectrum of harmonics in the balanced signal is similar to the harmonics of the PP amplifier. This gives the PP sound, even if it is connected to a SE amplifier.
 

Atmasphere

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I'm not saying what should happen, I'm saying that the spectrum of harmonics in the balanced signal is similar to the harmonics of the PP amplifier. This gives the PP sound, even if it is connected to a SE amplifier.
This statement is false. Balanced operation insofar as a cable is concerned is not PP nor does it have the harmonics of a PP amplifier.

Look back at that link I provided for Bill Whitlock's book. Look at page 15; tell me where the PP operation is in the diagram. In a balanced cable, if it is being driven properly as in the case of transformers, the inverted signal is generated with respect to the non-inverted signal rather than ground, and vice versa. Its no PP. If you were to tie one side to ground, it would be single-ended, as shown in that diagram on page 15 I just mentioned.
 

Salectric

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It’s no PP. If you were to tie one side to ground, it would be single-ended….
And that’s why the cartridge output is not balanced. If you connect only one of the cartridge wires to the phono preamp, you won’t get signal input because the cartridge leads are not referenced to ground. They are floating.
 

adyc

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. I run 30 feet of interconnect cable in my system and the preamp is located with the turntable at a spot where it’s least affected by vibration in the listening room. I could run 60 feet it I wanted and no difference in the sound at all.
Doesn’t the capacitance of XLR cable make a difference? 60 feet has double capacitance of 30 feet. You mean it will not have affect on the sound? I always thought one should choose a long IC between pre and power with small capacitance.
 

Ron Resnick

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I'm not saying what should happen, I'm saying that the spectrum of harmonics in the balanced signal is similar to the harmonics of the PP amplifier. This gives the PP sound, even if it is connected to a SE amplifier.

This sounds a little bit like my theory about a possible sonic effect of balanced inputs and cables suppressing even ordered harmonic distortion. Ralph says balanced circuitry in components might suppress even ordered harmonic distortion, but not the balanced inputs and cables themselves.

But I am not ready to give up on my theory just yet.
 
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SVS

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This sounds a little bit like my theory about a possible sonic effect of balanced inputs and cables suppressing even ordered harmonic distortion. Ralph says balanced circuitry in components might suppress even ordered harmonic distortion, but not the balanced inputs and cables themselves.

But I am not ready to give up on my theory just yet.
It has long been known that in PP amplifiers (there a balanced signal is required according to the principle of operation, if it is not present at the input, then it is received specially) even harmonics are mutually compensated. But the odd ones are left behind, and these are dissonant harmonics, they are unpleasant for hearing.
 

adrianywu

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I'm not saying what should happen, I'm saying that the spectrum of harmonics in the balanced signal is similar to the harmonics of the PP amplifier. This gives the PP sound, even if it is connected to a SE amplifier.
Push pull circuits cancel even order DISTORTION, it does not cancel harmonics in the signal. DISTORTION is produced by the amplification circuit, harmonics is what has been recorded in the source signal. If a push pull circuit cancels even order harmonics in the signal, violin will sound different, as the sound is 50% second harmonic. Since most if not all recordings were made using equipment with balanced circuits, this would mean all commercial recordings would alter the tonality of string instruments, which is obviously untrue. Since cables do not produce harmonic distortion (at least I hope yours don't), it should not make any difference whether they are balanced or not. And even order harmonics are consonant, which means this type of distortion is only noticeable at high levels. That means in reality, a single-ended amplifier needs to produce A LOT of even order harmonic distortion before it will perceptible. Psychoacoustic experiments using blinded participants have shown time and again that added even order harmonic distortion is NOT euphonic. Subjects consistently preferred the sound without the added harmonics. The reason why some people find SETs preferable is because the low order even harmonics have a masking effect on the dissonant odd order harmonics and intermodulatory distortion that some amplifiers can generate.
 
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SVS

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Push pull circuits cancel even order DISTORTION, it does not cancel harmonics in the signal. DISTORTION is produced by the amplification circuit, harmonics is what has been recorded in the source signal. If a push pull circuit cancels even order harmonics in the signal, violin will sound different, as the sound is 50% second harmonic. Since most if not all recordings were made using equipment with balanced circuits, this would mean all commercial recordings would alter the tonality of string instruments, which is obviously untrue. Since cables do not produce harmonic distortion (at least I hope yours don't), it should not make any difference whether they are balanced or not. And even order harmonics are consonant, which means this type of distortion is only noticeable at high levels. That means in reality, a single-ended amplifier needs to produce A LOT of even order harmonic distortion before it will perceptible. Psychoacoustic experiments using blinded participants have shown time and again that added even order harmonic distortion is NOT euphonic. Subjects consistently preferred the sound without the added harmonics. The reason why some people find SETs preferable is because the low order even harmonics have a masking effect on the dissonant odd order harmonics and intermodulatory distortion that some amplifiers can generate.
You are a bit confused about the terms. Harmonics are oscillations that are multiples of the fundamental tone and their set is individual for any voice or instrument. They determine the timbre of the sound.

But the distortions are like harmonics, but disordered. For example, when the amplifier begins to limit the output signal, it means that harmonics, which theoretically have an infinite spectrum, begin to be added to this signal. Smaller distortions add fewer harmonics.

Tube amplifiers have greater distortion than transistor amplifiers, but their spectrum is much shorter. Our brain corrects this spectrum and perceives it as a natural sound without distortion.
This is true under the condition of a monotonically decreasing spectrum.

In PP amplifiers, the odd harmonics are larger than the even harmonics and the monotonicity condition is violated.

Transistor amplifiers have an overall distortion several orders of magnitude lower than tube amplifiers, but their spectrum can have harmonics with numbers 30 or more, which our brain perceives as unnatural sound.
 

adrianywu

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You are a bit confused about the terms. Harmonics are oscillations that are multiples of the fundamental tone and their set is individual for any voice or instrument. They determine the timbre of the sound.

But the distortions are like harmonics, but disordered. For example, when the amplifier begins to limit the output signal, it means that harmonics, which theoretically have an infinite spectrum, begin to be added to this signal. Smaller distortions add fewer harmonics.

Tube amplifiers have greater distortion than transistor amplifiers, but their spectrum is much shorter. Our brain corrects this spectrum and perceives it as a natural sound without distortion.
This is true under the condition of a monotonically decreasing spectrum.

In PP amplifiers, the odd harmonics are larger than the even harmonics and the monotonicity condition is violated.

Transistor amplifiers have an overall distortion several orders of magnitude lower than tube amplifiers, but their spectrum can have harmonics with numbers 30 or more, which our brain perceives as unnatural sound.
"But the distortions are like harmonics, but disordered". Don't you what you mean by that. If added sounds are unrelated to the signal (presumably what you referred to as disordered), it is called noise. Only extra signal that is related to the original signal is called distortion. There can be harmonic distortion (signal that is at a multiple of the fundamental signal frequency) or intermodulatory distortion (usually as a result of interaction of two or more frequencies in the original signal). Tubes as amplification devices generally have a lower distortion than solid state devices, especially triodes. This is why most solid state circuits need to employ negative feedback to improve linearity. Older transistor amplifiers had higher distortion due to the fact that the transistors used at the time had inadequate open loop gain, and when a high level of NFB was applied, distortion was generated. I don't understand what you mean by monotonicity. Any musical signal can be broken down into its harmonic components (sine waves) by Fourier transformation. If you take monotonicity for its common meaning as a pure sine wave of a certain frequency, this does not exist in nature. If you play an A (f=440) on a violin and on a flute, you can tell the difference because of the difference in the harmonic spectrum of the two instruments, even though both notes have the same fundamental frequency. Even order harmonics are basically octaves above the fundamental and their Perfect 5ths, which are consonant. Not all odd order harmonics are dissonant, and so it is not simply a matter of higher or lower order. Higher order distortion products can also be masked by lower order products, and so the overall spectrum of the distortion will determine how the brain perceives the sound.
 

Atmasphere

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And that’s why the cartridge output is not balanced. If you connect only one of the cartridge wires to the phono preamp, you won’t get signal input because the cartridge leads are not referenced to ground. They are floating.
Exactly the opposite! A floating source is a balanced source, if it is inductive in nature. The proof of this is simple: try reversing the leads from the cartridge and see what happens. You get a phase difference and that's all. If it was a single ended source, you'd get an enormous hum. I've been running a balanced line between my tonearm and preamp now for about 35 years, and now you're telling me it doesn't work?? ;)

Any phono cartridge based on an inductive principle is a balanced source, with the one exception being the old Decca cartridge, which had only three leads for both channels. Internally it was balanced, but they chose to combine the minus connections, not realizing they would get some signal cancellation just like you do in a three wire headphone connection as opposed to a 4 wire hookup.
Doesn’t the capacitance of XLR cable make a difference? 60 feet has double capacitance of 30 feet. You mean it will not have affect on the sound? I always thought one should choose a long IC between pre and power with small capacitance.
The capacitance of a balanced line isn't double, and I'm sure at some point it probably does make a difference. In the studio, this is controlled by the source and the input it drives both being low impedance (hence the old 600 Ohm standard; these days low impedance inputs in the studio are more like 1KOhms to 2KOhms). If the source is low impedance, in practice that's fine for driving 100 feet no worries even if the input it drives is 100KOhms.

You can't do that with a phono cartridge though because the resonant frequency caused by the inductance of the cartridge in parallel with the capacitance of the tonearm cable goes down as you add more cable length. The lower it gets, the more opportunity it has to mess with your electronics. As it is, LOMC cartridges produce RFI on this account which is why many people use 'loading resistors' to detune that resonance. Its actually for the benefit of the phono section though, not the cartridge. If your phono section was designed with this phenomena in mind (IOW immune to RFI at its input), you won't need the loading resistors.
It has long been known that in PP amplifiers (there a balanced signal is required according to the principle of operation, if it is not present at the input, then it is received specially) even harmonics are mutually compensated. But the odd ones are left behind, and these are dissonant harmonics, they are unpleasant for hearing.
The ear treats the 2nd and 3rd the same, since they are so close to the fundamental. If the circuit is fully balanced, the 3rd will appear (assuming open loop) at a level less than it might in an SET. Succeeding harmonics then fall off on an exponential curve based on a cubic function (SETs express harmonics on a quadratic function), meaning they fall off at a faster rate than in an SET, and so are easily masked by the 3rd, which is benign.
In PP amplifiers, the odd harmonics are larger than the even harmonics and the monotonicity condition is violated.
This isn't correct, if you are referring to all PP amps. It can be correct if the PP amp has a single-ended input, combining SE circuits with PP circuits. When this happens, algebraic summing of the quadratic and cubic non-linearities thus expressed results in a prominent 5th (see Norman Crowhurst's writings of 60 years ago). IOW you either go SE all the way or fully differential balanced all the way, if you want that nice fully masked exponential decay of higher ordered harmonics.
This sounds a little bit like my theory about a possible sonic effect of balanced inputs and cables suppressing even ordered harmonic distortion. Ralph says balanced circuitry in components might suppress even ordered harmonic distortion, but not the balanced inputs and cables themselves.

But I am not ready to give up on my theory just yet.
I hadn't thought that the idea that balanced cables were thought to do anything like you describe, but SVS seems to subscribe to the same idea, so maybe that's another myth about balanced line operation that's out there.

Here's something to consider: you can buy single-ended tube microphone preamps that drive balanced lines using an output transformer. Such preamps have schematics that on paper look identical to SET amps- literally scaled down. The transformer used, like this one

SEtrans.jpg
works exactly the same way that it does in any SET: so yes, you can have an SET drive a balanced line easily enough, by simply seeing to it that neither connection of the output transformer is tied to ground. So the leap you are taking in your 'theory' is that somehow, by simply making this connection, the SET takes on all the properties of PP?? I had Jack Elliano of Electra Print make this little guy for me for an SET mic preamp. You can see it only has two wires on the primary side and only two on the output side; not enough to be a PP transformer. It's meant for a single 12AU7 or 6CG7 section to drive it and it has a cut core, just like any SET OPT might if the primary side is a plate load for the tube driving it.
 

SVS

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"But the distortions are like harmonics, but disordered". Don't you what you mean by that. If added sounds are unrelated to the signal (presumably what you referred to as disordered), it is called noise.
I had in mind the irregularity, the unsystematic amplitudes of the harmonics that arise, precisely the harmonic of the main signal.
Noise is completely different.

Monotonicity is when the next harmonic is consistently smaller than the previous harmonic.
There is no monotony in PP amplifiers because the second harmonic is smaller, the third larger, the fourth smaller, etc.
 

DasguteOhr

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I recreated this to adapt different preamplifiers and power amplifiers with different inputs and levels. Then I had the idea of replacing the line transformer with an MC step up transformer. This means you no longer change need cables, regardless of whether they are mm, mc or mc with transformer. it works perfect with good switches from elna. You'll quickly notice how good the XLR version sounds. build this in a metalhousing and hear the difference.


OVzPUuD.png

P.S ressistors in middle no need for phono
 
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Atmasphere

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There is no monotony in PP amplifiers because the second harmonic is smaller, the third larger, the fourth smaller, etc.
This statement is false. Our OTLs are fully differential and balanced from input to output. The 3rd is dominant and harmonics decrease from there as the order of the harmonic is increased. A fully differential circuit operating open loop will express monotony. Now if you mix it with single-ended circuits, put a bit of feedback on it and distort the feedback signal by applying it to the cathode of the input tube, this won't happen. It gets messy.

When people compare SETs to PP amps they usually ignore variables such as class of operation, the kinds of tubes used, open loop or feedback and so on. When you eliminate these and other variables (such as output power) you find that SET does not have the advantages their owners claim- they've simply been comparing apples and oranges.

That is a topic for another thread- this one is about XLR connections and phono stages...
 

Solypsa

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May I make a suggestion? In keeping with the thread title can we move forward and speak of the phono preamp input etc. ?

1) I cant see why one would not want to use a three pin connection ( such as xlr ) with a sut ( whether external or internal ) other than the prevalence of cables in rca. Seems the most flexible with regard to grounding options ( including floating ). Is there a reason not to?

2) For active ( no sut ) phono preamps: what topology can make good use of a three pin ( floating or otherwise ) input connection? What topologies are best without?

Seems like we could then be touching on engineering topics wrt phono design which may be too technical for this forum but interesting anyway?
 

Atmasphere

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1) I cant see why one would not want to use a three pin connection ( such as xlr ) with a sut ( whether external or internal ) other than the prevalence of cables in rca. Seems the most flexible with regard to grounding options ( including floating ). Is there a reason not to?

2) For active ( no sut ) phono preamps: what topology can make good use of a three pin ( floating or otherwise ) input connection? What topologies are best without?
1) No- its an excellent idea, since any transformer can receive a balanced input and produce either a balanced or single-ended output with ease. This allows the tonearm cable to be as neutral and musical as possible.

2) Almost any active input will be differential if no transformer is used, whether tube, discrete semiconductor or opamp. In all cases the input resistors should be matched to maximize the Common Mode Rejection Ratio of the input. The stock loading value for any cartridge is 47K Ohms so there are several ways this can be done. One way is to split the 47K value in half, using two such resistors to ground so as to provide the load and also allow for any requirements the input devices might need, such as grid bias. Or you could have two much higher values like 1MegOhm and a 47K resistance placed between the two inputs (inverting and non-inverting). Its a very good idea to add RFI rejection inductors in series with the input, so as to reduce the circuit's vulnerability to RFI generated by LOMC cartridges.

I've found that if you use tubes or discrete semiconductors, the Constant Current Source of the input stage is critical for low noise. In particular it must be able to reject noise from the power supply and ground. Differential circuits are already good at that, but if you add this bit (and also regulate the power supplies) noise is further reduced.
 
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Atmasphere

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Then we agree fundamentally on how balanced operation is implemented. We only disagree on the definition of the word balanced. And that's ok, as long as we build things that work correctly.
Yes!

FWIW though, I don't know of a balanced source that isn't floating, unless its an active source that doesn't support AES48.

I'm not saying there's not one out there, but its not a microphone!

I have an ancient RCA MI-11241 dual channel microphone preamp that must date from the early-mid 1950s; its output is balanced and floating. So this practice of floating balanced sources goes back nearly 70 years.
 

Dentdog

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I don't need a center tap, I don't use balanced signals.
First, it is a PP signal with a corresponding sound signature. I like the SE sound better.
Secondly, for home use, the protection against interference provided by RCA cables is quite sufficient.
In my opinion, there are only two rational uses of balanced signals: the input of a PP amplifier and the output of a delta-sigma DAC.

We are all human and can make mistakes, you and your authorities are no exception.
So balanced amplifiers that are push pull have an advantage. Being that push pull amps have quite an advantage in producing power from a set of tubes, will balanced in this case augment the quality of the signal in respect to improving the notch distortion? What other advantages?
 

Atmasphere

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So balanced amplifiers that are push pull have an advantage. Being that push pull amps have quite an advantage in producing power from a set of tubes, will balanced in this case augment the quality of the signal in respect to improving the notch distortion? What other advantages?
If you are using transformers, the circuit driving the output can be single-ended. The output of a balanced source or component is supposed to be floating as opposed to PP. So there's no issue regarding notch distortion, as we can see in the case of a phono cartridge.

The main advantages are
1) ground loop immunity
2) interconnect cable artifact immunity
3) overall lower noise since signals impinged on the cable are rejected at the receiving end (Common Mode Rejection).
 
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