Police Use of Force: A Critic tries it out

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
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#22
I wonder how that happened. (Sarcastic, yes, but pointers to information would be useful, I come from a different culture.)
Google "Henry Louis Gates arrest", who criticized it and you'll see who started the anti-police racial accusations and follow every incident since when there was a white cop incident with a black man and you'll see his comments. Of course there's also the usual circus clowns who're invited to come out to play and bring chaos with them. Read the following two articles by Dr. Sowell for further insight.

http://townhall.com/columnists/thom...tm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl&newsletterad=

http://townhall.com/columnists/thom...tm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl&newsletterad=

david
 
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ack

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May 6, 2010
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#23
I like to speak with facts. Police do a lot of good things, but I don't care for one-sided comments either, as I don't think folks here are really ignorant of all the data out there, good or bad. Therefore, frankly, I am surprised by some of the comments that conveniently ignore the many crimes police commit over and over again - e.g. selling drugs, buying drugs, beating wives, driving drunk and killing people, turning into thieves and killers, falsifying reports, abusing power, etc. Speaking of abuse of power, today again, another chief was convicted - http://www.cbsnews.com/news/alabama-police-chief-found-guilty-of-federal-assault-excessive-force/ All of these links are based on facts, not allegations, and I have obviously avoided discussing recent police killings not yet fully vetted out. At the same time, here in Massachusetts police misconduct and convictions are well documented and available to the inquiring minds. I have personally witnessed police misconduct and outright deliberate lies in court.

I also find the video in the original post kinda pointless - you give an untrained man a gun, a thug is marching toward him, he decides to shoot. All I saw is one thug "killing" another, not a trained professional in action. Contrast this with another police shooting in Fresno that surfaced just this week, and it's the exact same situation as that video in the OP, and I am sure a lot have already seen it; the approach by of a true professional (to someone disobeying orders and marching towards the police) is vastly better and more controlled, though the same video raises other questions about police conduct and there is no need to discuss here. At the same time, I don't buy that shooting the legs is difficult or ineffective; case in point, the very famous arrest of a very dangerous Paris terrorist - Abdeslam - in Belgium, where the police root him out of his apartment and rather calmly shoot him in the leg as he runs out the front door, because they wanted him *alive*.

So before this gets out of hand and we all lose all respect for each other, can this thread be closed now?
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
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#24
No one's claiming that the police are all boy scouts and who or what they protect & serve is always the public, my argument and perhaps others is the current racial narrative against the police as portrayed in OP, I don't see it and the statistics don't support it. This false narrative is what's giving rise to mob rule, BLM thugs and those who benefit from anarchy and divisiveness.

Regarding justified use of deadly force in self defense, it's a case by case issue you can't realistically comment until you've been in those situation and survived it. Your example of Belgium/French police in a major planned operation where the police had the technical advantage a were ready and armed in superior numbers is very different than what happens on the street in a split second between two people. The results are very different when the terrorists or assailants are acting and the rest of us including the police are reacting!

david

I like to speak with facts. Police do a lot of good things, but I don't care for one-sided comments either, as I don't think folks here are really ignorant of all the data out there, good or bad. Therefore, frankly, I am surprised by some of the comments that conveniently ignore the many crimes police commit over and over again - e.g. selling drugs, buying drugs, beating wives, driving drunk and killing people, turning into thieves and killers, falsifying reports, abusing power, etc. Speaking of abuse of power, today again, another chief was convicted - http://www.cbsnews.com/news/alabama-police-chief-found-guilty-of-federal-assault-excessive-force/ All of these links are based on facts, not allegations, and I have obviously avoided discussing recent police killings not yet fully vetted out. At the same time, here in Massachusetts police misconduct and convictions are well documented and available to the inquiring minds. I have personally witnessed police misconduct and outright deliberate lies in court.

I also find the video in the original post kinda pointless - you give an untrained man a gun, a thug is marching toward him, he decides to shoot. All I saw is one thug "killing" another, not a trained professional in action. Contrast this with another police shooting in Fresno that surfaced just this week, and it's the exact same situation as that video in the OP, and I am sure a lot have already seen it; the approach by of a true professional (to someone disobeying orders and marching towards the police) is vastly better and more controlled, though the same video raises other questions about police conduct and there is no need to discuss here. At the same time, I don't buy that shooting the legs is difficult or ineffective; case in point, the very famous arrest of a very dangerous Paris terrorist - Abdeslam - in Belgium, where the police root him out of his apartment and rather calmly shoot him in the leg as he runs out the front door, because they wanted him *alive*.

So before this gets out of hand and we all lose all respect for each other, can this thread be closed now?
 

RBFC

WBF Founding Member & Super Moderator
Apr 20, 2010
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Albuquerque, NM
www.fightingconcepts.com
#25
The video was meant to show an untrained critic of police use-of-force the various elements, time pressures, and critical decisions that are involved in these incidents. One cannot understand these incidents without some contextual experience.

Trained sharpshooters waiting to capture a felon who has been located are in a completely different scenario than the events we are discussing. He was most likely shot by a rifle, I will research this.

Finally, every profession has a sub-group of those who are corrupt. This fact does not tarnish the value of that profession.

Lee
 

ack

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May 6, 2010
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#26
I think it does tarnish the value of *this* profession because real lives are at stake - and with the Dallas shootings, the police are now victimized as well. But regardless, the main question is why do a lot of people have no respect for the police. Real data out there gives people the information to form a contrarian opinion - and it's quite obvious some of you here do not appreciate that at all - and the amount of proven and documented misconduct appears to be overwhelming.
 

Folsom

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#27
Last night I was wondering if it's their demeanour as it can often be cold, stiff, and upset that they're doing their job. That's for little daily stuff, like traffic stops. They're probably taught to keep it short and business like, but if the business is public safety than generating good will is important so it's not time wasted to be polite and just personable enough that the person doesn't feel that police only exist to as a mechanism of "them" vs "me". And I have to say the latex glove thing is not a sign of caring for people, it's more like a "oh man I have to deal with these scum" (no matter whom it refers to). And yes I understand they can get exposed to a lot of, say common cold viruses, but that's part of it like being a teacher; they'll build good immune systems. Imagine if your kid's teacher wore latex gloves, that would set off some flags about their vested interest in the children.
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
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#28
the main question is why do a lot of people have no respect for the police.
Good question ack, I think the lack of respect from the average citizen comes because of interaction with police, myself included! There are some departments that are outright hostile to the community that they're hired to supposedly protect with a gotcha attitude for every minor traffic violation, sometimes even fabricated to meet quotas set local municipalities. A visit to traffic court will turn lack of respect to outright contempt of authority! Seeing what people in power get away with doesn't instill trust either.

david
 
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ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
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#29
Good question ack, I think the lack of respect from the average citizen comes because interaction with police, myself included! There are some departments that are outright hostile to the community that they're hired to supposedly protect with a gotcha attitude for every minor traffic violation, sometimes even fabricated to meet quotas set local municipalities. A visit to traffic court will turn lack of respect to outright contempt of authority! Seeing what people in power get away with doesn't instill trust either.

david
Bingo, David; I will note "yourself included" and "Seeing what people in power get away with doesn't instill trust either".

Here's something else to consider; first the good data: some police departments - like where I live (Brookline) - are exemplary for being friendly, and I have been let go when pulled over late at night after proving that I was rushing to the pharmacy. Everyone I know of speaks extremely highly about their interactions with the Brookline police. Now the bad data: even in places like Brookline there is trouble, and two black police officers have recently filed racial discrimination lawsuits against their own department. There is real struggle just about everywhere I look, including the sleepy towns with no real crime. You brought up the Gates incident and the Cambridge police; I hate to inform you, but I have no respect for the Cambridge police and the way they conduct themselves, and I am sure we don't need any more links. Obama was too quick to comment on the Gates/CPD interaction, but I bet he was fed some information about that department beforehand, though eventually decided to say no more. So when Gates said what he said, I bet he knew a lot about the Cambridge police as well.

Finally, Folsom brought up "gloves" - I don't see the issue there. The dangers police deal with include unpleasant and perhaps dangerous physical contact...
 

Folsom

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#30
ack how would you feel if they were wearing gloves to hold your ID? I'm not talking about touching methheads and crackpipes.
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
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#31
ack how would you feel if they were wearing gloves to hold your ID? I'm not talking about touching methheads and crackpipes.
I really don't care; what if the gloves were white cloth - how would you feel then
 
Apr 3, 2010
16,022
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Seattle, WA
#32
I don't know the recipes, I don't know how to end this craziness and fear in America. It starts @ people first, only them decide for peace or for violence.
This is a wonderful country but it has this super dark side. The other day the talk show radio host was saying there was a "mass shooting" yesterday in Chicago but no one reported it. Then it went on to say that nearly 11 people got shot the previous day and two of them died. Since start of the year, 23 people have died from shootings in Chicago, and 167 wounded out of 190 shots: http://heyjackass.com/

And this is just one city! There are some great souls like you Bob, who even though you don't live here, feel our pain in the eloquent manner in which you post. Like you, I have no idea what the answer is. That is not my speciality or training. I just can't fathom how we are capable of such greatness in this country, and such pain and brutality. Reminds of a similar line in one of my favorite movies, Contact:



Thanks again for caring Bob.
 

Folsom

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#33
Amir, that's a city that has banned a lot of firearms, too. But you're opening a serious can of worms because due diligence for correctly reading statistics must be employed when looking at anything that involves firearms since the majority of it is downright dishonest. (example high "gun violence" in Wyoming with more guns than people, is something like 99% suicides)

I suggest we stay on topic about police, and our thoughts on the use of force / how to not need it.
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
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#34
Bingo, David; I will note "yourself included" and "Seeing what people in power get away with doesn't instill trust either".

Here's something else to consider; first the good data: some police departments - like where I live (Brookline) - are exemplary for being friendly, and I have been let go when pulled over late at night after proving that I was rushing to the pharmacy. Everyone I know of speaks extremely highly about their interactions with the Brookline police. Now the bad data: even in places like Brookline there is trouble, and two black police officers have recently filed racial discrimination lawsuits against their own department. There is real struggle just about everywhere I look, including the sleepy towns with no real crime. You brought up the Gates incident and the Cambridge police; I hate to inform you, but I have no respect for the Cambridge police and the way they conduct themselves, and I am sure we don't need any more links. Obama was too quick to comment on the Gates/CPD interaction, but I bet he was fed some information about that department beforehand, though eventually decided to say no more. So when Gates said what he said, I bet he knew a lot about the Cambridge police as well.

Finally, Folsom brought up "gloves" - I don't see the issue there. The dangers police deal with include unpleasant and perhaps dangerous physical contact...
I have to say that all my negative interaction over the years have been with the same police depts., Nassau & Suffolk County police, ironically two highest paid in the nation with the best benefits. This is were parents live for years, a predominantly white and Asian affluent town with little or no crime, Nassau county cops are abusive, underhanded and downright giant adversarial PRICKS with everyone across the board and really leave a bad stench behind with every encounter. The traffic court is just as bad, the DA is there making deals for higher payment against changing the traffic violation from one with points consequences to one that has no points penalty. Most of it is bullshit and they prey on the elderly and the young there. Hanging around cop bars and listening to them recount stories of how they tripped up elderly drivers into making mistakes tells you what their mindset is. They're basically hired mercenaries of the town mayor who rents for this type of thing from Nassau County. The local police used to be friendly but overtime learnt from Nassau County cops that it pays to be a dick! I have to admit not having the same type of interaction anywhere else I lived including Manhattan. Local police around were we live now in Utah are pretty respectful and pleasant, they are and behave as part of the community rather than the gotcha gang! But all this is an aside to the war on police and one sided reporting and demonizing of the police in violent encounters where blacks are involved, this is were I'm squarely on their side.

david
 
Apr 3, 2010
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Seattle, WA
#35
Amir, that's a city that has banned a lot of firearms, too. But you're opening a serious can of worms because due diligence for correctly reading statistics must be employed when looking at anything that involves firearms since the majority of it is downright dishonest. (example high "gun violence" in Wyoming with more guns than people, is something like 99% suicides)
As I said, I am a newbie. Here is another link: http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/may-statistics-show-big-jump-in-murders-other-crimes/

What's dishonest in that report?

"In May of last year, there were 264 shootings. This May, there were 318 shootings — a 20-percent jump.

[...]

The homicide count kept by the police department does not include fatal shootings by police, or killings that are ruled to be in self-defense. The majority of the city’s violence is driven by less than 1 percent of its population, mostly gang members with illegal guns, the police department has said."


I suggest we stay on topic about police, and our thoughts on the use of force / how to not need it.
Such topics have tore apart entire communities, let alone a forum where you can't even see your counterpart face to face. Not sure how you think this is not a can of worms that it has been. It drags in just about every controversial topic.

My hope with my post was to focus on the humanity and pain of it that hopefully we all share. Or should.

Anyway, I am out of here.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
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#36
. . . Reminds of a similar line in one of my favorite movies, Contact . . .
On a lighter note (and a completely irrelevant note, so please forgive me) Contact is officially my favorite movie of all time! Thank you, Amir, for reminding me of it.
 

Folsom

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#37
Amir, those statistics might be ok. I don't know because there's no links to official census information. What I'm advising is the talking about it goes down a twisted road because inevitably it's not just Chicago that's discussed.
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
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#38
I like this video because it does away with the current narrative against police, stereotypes and shows how vulnerable a lone officer is on the ground even when has a slight temporary advantage.


david
 
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