Poll: Objective Measurements versus Subjective Reviews

[esldude]

So given a free-form choice, how would you phrase yours?

I use a combination of blind, and sighted listening after taking into account measurements.

 

[rbbert]

I use a combination of blind, and sighted listening after taking into account measurements.

Why not choice 2 then?

 

[microstrip]

Although I read and can understand the technicalities of measurements I voted " I rely mainly on listening but also read reviews:". I have never found a measurement section in a review that could be of real help. This is specially true in digital and amplifiers.

 

[microstrip]

I use a combination of blind, and sighted listening after taking into account measurements.

How do you carry blind tests with your large Soundlabs?
Do you have measurements for them?

 

[esldude]

I dont think using a whole slew of research and graphs to bludgeon one into a subjective preference is at all valid.. Any subjective preference based research really means nothing to me.. its MY preference that counts.

The bludgeoning comments have no validity. You are just trying to paint the opposition in a bad light because they don't agree with you.

Yes, it is your preference that counts. Now if you knew that your preference was the same as 90% of everyone else, and someone is designing to that preference how is that not good for you? Of course I and presumably you don't know whether your preference is in the 90% or not. Somehow some considerable number of people are likely to be wrong about nearly all careful audiophiles being in the 10%. They might be in the 10% of best equipment available and still stand a good likelihood of having the same general preferences as the general population.

Yet somehow subjective based preference research means nothing to you, and measurements mean nothing to you, you are somehow so special none of it applies to you.

 

[esldude]

Why not choice 2 then?

If I pick one, it will be #2.

 

[esldude]

How do you carry blind tests with your large Soundlabs?
Do you have measurements for them?

Haven't done blind tests with my Soundlabs. Though I wish I could. I have done blind or bypass testing of other components.

Yes, I do have measurements for them. I do use room correction, and it makes for a good improvement.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Listening is the alpha and the omega of what we do. It all starts with listening and hopefully ends in listening, and along the way we fit in as much time listening as possible. It also helps to read up on other people's experiences and check out relevant technical performance information but it's easy to lose the plot by only ever looking at graphs just as we can easily miss the point entirely by just buying into other people's preferences.

Listening is the core and the key, it has always been the joy and the ultimate reward of the pursuit... anything that ultimately makes us spend more of our time thinking and talking about this rather than listening to music and enjoying the experience is a trap.

 

[mep]

Because to say we have proven something, means we don't even understand what it is that has been accomplished. As you see from JA, he also agrees that statistical significance cannot be attached to the results. Yet you think it was "proven?" As I said, you can predict a coin toss 5 out of 5 times. Doing that 10 times in a row gets hard though. That is why we need minimum number of trials. That is, if you want to convince someone who values this type of rigor. If you just want to convince yourself, then sure, why even bother with that test?

Amir-picking a coin toss correctly is a 50/50 proposition. If you can correctly guess a coin toss 5 out of 5 times, you need to go to Vegas ASAP and play roulette. Just quit after your first 5 correct choices since it can't be repeated.

 

[NorthStar]

It looks like I'm from the majority...good...less arguing. :b ...And more time for music listening and movie watching.

 

[JackD201]

Haven't done blind tests with my Soundlabs. Though I wish I could. I have done blind or bypass testing of other components.

Yes, I do have measurements for them. I do use room correction, and it makes for a good improvement.

With all you've done do they measure as well as or better than the M2?

Incidentally I voted #3

I look at reviews for prospects and seeing what music used I might want to buy but mostly entertainment
I look at measurements for probability of utilisation
When DUT is in hand I go through a process of optimisation using listening and log measurements with changes so I can "zero" things of I get lost. This saves time.

 

[esldude]

With all you've done do they measure as well as or better than the M2?

Incidentally I voted #3

I look at reviews for prospects and seeing what music used I might want to buy but mostly entertainment
I look at measurements for probability of utilisation
When DUT is in hand I go through a process of optimisation using listening and log measurements with changes so I can "zero" things of I get lost. This saves time.

They do not measure as well as the measures I have seen of the M2.

Why do I not have the M2? Money for one. Were I doing this all over again I am not sure I would go with Soundlabs or even panels. I have been using panel speakers for right about 30 years now. Initially the big Wow was lack of a boxy sound. There are more than a few speakers currently that don't have much if any boxy coloration. Way back when I accepted compromises in other areas to not have resonant boxes. I also didn't know as much as I do now about such things, and correction of speaker issues wasn't generally possible unless a total DIY project was undertaken. So the Soundlabs have been catered to and tweaked to give good sound. They do still have deficiencies and I do believe one could do better. They may well get replaced in the near future.

 

[CGabriel]

Have you carried out unsighted comparisons, can you post the data?
Keith.

A good question if asked by a reasonably curious person.

You are neither reasonable nor can you conduct yourself in a civil manner. Therefore, I really don't feel the need to respond to an obvious troll.

 

[amirm]

Mod: guys let's not deviate from the topic of the thread.

 

[CGabriel]

That is a pity, as far as I am aware no one has ever been able to reliably pick an after market power cable in a properly conducted unsighted comparison. I was rather hoping you had conducted your own unsighted trials?

Keith.

In Internet slang, a troll (/?tro?l/, /?tr?l/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[SUP][1][/SUP] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[SUP][2][/SUP] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[SUP][3]

source Wikipedia[/SUP]

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

That's the whole point..why pay $100k vs $7k when the specs closely match ? Because it sounds better...not necessarily measuring better.

My reading comprehension is pretty good Christian. However, feel free to interpret the OP as you wish.

 

[PeterA]

If I had spent more time, more thought, and had more experience/knowledge, I would have designed a simpler, binary poll, say,

A: I rely mostly on objective measurements to evaluate speakers

B: I rely mostly on subjective opinion to evaluate speakers

There would still have been some criticism of the poll, I'm sure.

I think the results, however, would still be heavily in favor of subjective opinion, ie actual listening, reading reviews, talking to others, etc. This just seems to be the way reviewers and audiophiles operate for the reasons already discussed. But I understand the importance of measurements. Seeing the measurements and comparing them to what you hear can certainly be helpful in better understanding what a speaker is doing.

Measurements play a vital role in the design of speakers. No one has disputed that. Few have argued that measurements have no use to the reviewer or audiophile. Most of us, it seems, want many sources of information when we are investigating a pair of speakers. And measurements can certainly be a part of the mix.

Frankly, after reading through all three of the threads discussing this topic, I don't see what the controversy is all about. Perhaps it has more to do with how the various positions are presented and the overall tone of the discussion.

There has been a great deal of passion in the discussion the last few days. I have been guilty of that myself, and for this, I hereby apologize to the membership. I think I've learned more about myself and some of the membership than I have anything new about the importance and role of measurements. I'm going to listen to Albinoni's Adagio.

 

[amirm]

So summarizing the poll, roughly 85% of the people who voted put some value on measurements. Only 15% ignore it and in those, 0% trust a review by itself.

 

[amirm]

If I had spent more time, more thought, and had more experience/knowledge, I would have designed a simpler, binary poll, say,

A: I rely mostly on objective measurements to evaluate speakers

B: I rely mostly on subjective opinion to evaluate speakers

There would still have been some criticism of the poll, I'm sure.

I think the results, however, would still be heavily in favor of subjective opinion, ie actual listening, reading reviews, talking to others, etc. This just seems to be the way reviewers and audiophiles operate for the reasons already discussed. But I understand the importance of measurements. Seeing the measurements and comparing them to what you hear can certainly be helpful in better understanding what a speaker is doing.

Measurements play a vital role in the design of speakers. No one has disputed that. Few have argued that measurements have no use to the reviewer or audiophile. Most of us, it seems, want many sources of information when we are investigating a pair of speakers. And measurements can certainly be a part of the mix.

Frankly, after reading through all three of the threads discussing this topic, I don't see what the controversy is all about. Perhaps it has more to do with how the various positions are presented and the overall tone of the discussion.

There has been a great deal of passion in the discussion the last few days. I have been guilty of that myself, and for this, I hereby apologize to the membership. I think I've learned more about myself and some of the membership than I have anything new about the importance and role of measurements. I'm going to listen to Albinoni's Adagio.

Our posts crossed. I don't think there is anything to apologize for. Despite my grumpiness about this poll, useful results have been generated. On the debate, it is the nature of spirited one that forces each side to do the best they can to present their case and as a result, great amount of information is presented. This certainly was the case here.

So thank you so much for the poll and participating in the discussions in a civil manner. It is all that I could have asked for, and something that I have not seen in other forums where over the years I have discussed the very same topic.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Amir-picking a coin toss correctly is a 50/50 proposition. If you can correctly guess a coin toss 5 out of 5 times, you need to go to Vegas ASAP and play roulette. Just quit after your first 5 correct choices since it can't be repeated.

Atkinson himself disagrees with you in black and white, as cited by Amir. And, a coin toss between two possibilities or two amps is not in any way like a roulette wheel which has many possible outcomes. Ever think of taking a course in Statistics 101? It might be an eye opener, provided you actually open your mind and learn from it. So, why do you persist with sophomoric arguments? It does not help your credibility.

We all listen and form opinions. If not, we are imbeciles. The question is what information leads to our choice of what to listen to and against what standards are we holding those sources of information? Individual reviewers and other individual audiophile anecdotes and testimonials under uncontrolled conditions we know nothing of generally do not cut it for me personally.